Thread: These just came in!

Originally Posted by Euclid440

These are excellent stones for learn how to squeeze the most from a finish stone. As said, finishing the stone properly does make a difference, most especially for a finish stone. I like a drop or two of Smith Honing Oil with water on these for final finishing.

Experimenting with slurry’s, sprays, viscosity and pressure will enlighten and entertain you for some time. In the end you will develop some skills.

Enjoy

+ 1 on that, that's exactly why I found them "fun".
Not bad stones either and the price is usually right.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

So with that statement are you saying that it is a "Higher grit" then a 12k ????

Because that is exactly how many would perceive what you posted, which is exactly where AJ gets the idea to contuinue to boost the Grit ratings in his advertising, and the cycle continues...

I haven't the equipment to compare scratch patterns in a meaningful way. I personally like the edge it produces better than the razors I've finished on the 12k Naniwa, that's all I'm trying to say. Why do you and other people choose to finish razors on any of your hones? I see you finishing razors on the norton, coticules, naniwas, eschers; there has to be a reason for this other than "I just felt like using this stone today". For whatever reason, different steel, grinds, razors work better with different stones. Maybe it's just my luck, no idea Glen, but I really do like the edge it produces better than the 12k Naniwa 99% of the time.

Rookie question... For argument sake, lets say a given stone is in the 10 to 12K range. If the stone is used as received with a lapped 400 grit finish, and the other side gets worked and lapped to 600-800 or more, apart from the surface is there much of a difference is abrasion? Just thinking, the stone hasn't changed, it is still a 10 to 12K stone, that is smoother yes, but as far as its honing ability the structure of the stone is still unchanged...

I understand smoother stone/smoother finish, is this what it boils down to? The treatment the stone has received? Because the size of the abrasive has not changed.

AJ also cautioned me not to finish too fine, because of quartz being the abrasive, if its taken to fine it messes it up somehow? Thoughts?

Originally Posted by brooksie967

I haven't the equipment to compare scratch patterns in a meaningful way. I personally like the edge it produces better than the razors I've finished on the 12k Naniwa, that's all I'm trying to say. Why do you and other people choose to finish razors on any of your hones? I see you finishing razors on the norton, coticules, naniwas, eschers; there has to be a reason for this other than "I just felt like using this stone today". For whatever reason, different steel, grinds, razors work better with different stones. Maybe it's just my luck, no idea Glen, but I really do like the edge it produces better than the 12k Naniwa 99% of the time.

Ahhhhh see that is what I was digging for...

I have a personal pet peeve about Natural "grit" ratings as do many others.. I especially don't like when the Sellers start using them to promote their stones, I have said this many times, "Go back in the Archives before the Shaptons became popular, and you would be hard pressed to find many claims of any stones higher then 10k"
Now we have people claiming all sorts of numbers on all sorts of Stones and Hones.. I saw one earlier of a Barber Hone rated at over 12k...
We have AJ and the Polish guy on e-bay using this and now claiming 15k rating on the WHIGs and the PHIGs ie: the cycle continues and the numbers keep going up, the worst part is that you also can't prove that is not true.. This is all just guessing, or really a WAG

Saying the edge produced feels better on your face I agree with, and say the same, but the variablity of why, has so much more involved then simply grit ratings..
It could be something as simple as you are more comfortable using the WHIG then you are using the Naniwa...

Scratch patterns, are another huge source of Mis-information as are Micrographs, they lead to many assumptions based on the looks of the Bevel, instead of the performance of the edge...

This all of course is JMHO, but honestly I laugh everytime I see a higher number claimed... The best was the guy claiming 50k Japanese naturals and within 6 months he changed it to 100k.. You can't really call it wrong, but ya sure can smile..

I have used these stones, post 12K and felt an improvement in edge comfort. I have several and each perform similar to others of their color.

Therein lies the problem, is it a 12K edge, I doubt it. I believe they are similar to a Coticule in mechanical performance. Most Coticules are not 12K edges either, but because of the nature of the stone construction and abrasives, can produce a more comfortable edge that higher grit synthetic edges. These Grey & Purple friable stones and Coticules can lend themselves to a higher polished edge and thus more a comfortable shaving edge.

When we talk about finishing we are talking about polishing the edge. On natural stones we are at a huge disadvantage because there is so much variety in the stone construction process (Nature) and we cannot determine grit size, so we compare the edge to a known synthetic stone. Based on what, Stria, keenness, comfort or some other subjective observation? Or does it simply improve a synthetic edge? Synthetic stones do not break down as much due to consistent size and density of grit.

It is much like sandpaper, we can achieve a finer finish with a well-worn piece of Wet & Dry, just because the grit is not as aggressive. It is the same size grit though possibly less of it, more rounded or dulled. We don’t say 600 grit paper is now 800 grit paper.

So are these stones 12K or higher, no I don’t think so. Possibly they can “improve”, a 12k edge or used in progression, in place of a 10-12K synthetic finisher.

And to prevent a Food Fight, I am not saying these stones are equivalent to Coticules, only that they are natural, friable stones, as are Coticules. And may or may not improve the finish of a synthetic edge. (It depend on what the definition of the word is, is).

In the end Naturals are Natural… and YMMV.

When I first got into this hobby I'll admit I was a bit hung up on grit ratings and trying to associate a value with natural stones. I gave that up a long time ago as, in the end, it really doesn't matter. I was actually going to mention that perhaps I was just more comfortable on those stones. As far as how he markets his stones.... not really sure what to say about it. I have noticed that he's started to provide a description of how the stone performs when finishing on razors. The thuringians he sells are now including descriptions with words like 'produces a buttery edge' etc. That's probably a more truthful way of selling his product.

Thanks for "digging" Glen, I actually do enjoy how you pick apart my posts to get me to say what I'm actually trying to say. I realize I'm not always the most eloquent writer when my brain is racing!

I really liked Euclid's Sandpaper analogy myself that explains things in a pretty easy to understand way

Pierre
Just as on a razor edge, when you lap a stone you leave stria from what ever abrasive you used to lap with. As you hone on that stria the size of the grooves will impact the edge. As your edge get finer and finer the easier it is to micro chip the edge, negating what you are attempting to achieve, which is a smooth straight edge.

So depending on the stone, more so with hard stones, the finer the finish the smaller the stria/scratch pattern, the smoother the edge will be polished on the razor.

It is much like the sandpaper example, still 600grit paper, but will leave smaller stria. Then you add in technique and pressure and ….

I will admit that Im a total newbie at honing and am really just posting here to help bolster my post count and any information contained in this post could be taken as complete bull sh*t. So continue reading at your own discretion.

I dont really give much thought about the higher "grits" of stones. So far, I've been having good luck with my "PHIG" stone. To my hand, which is trained enough from running against basically every grit of sandpaper you could imagine, it feels much more smooth than my Norton 8k. Does that mean anything? No. The few razors I have honed will shave off a 1k and everything higher in grit is just polishing and refining the edge. To me, the numbers associated with "grits" of stones is more or less there to help me in my progression through honing. I can go straight from a 1k to the Chinese finisher and get the same results, but its going to be a hell of alot slower than going through the progression. I personally think its kind of silly to worry about and get hung up on. But thats just my opinion.

Originally Posted by brooksie967

When I first got into this hobby I'll admit I was a bit hung up on grit ratings and trying to associate a value with natural stones.

Thats why that seller uses fancy names without any provenance and exorbitant grit ratings, his description like Buttery edge etc, have made many buyers bite and he is quite succesfull selling hones. I personally exchange many e-mail with him a while back, and he was not a straight razor user nor did he know anything about honing one, but in the end a real nice guy.