Thread: Norton 4/8 vs. Naniwa 3/8

Wow, thanks Lynn. Thanks everyone. This site is as awesome now as it was when I joined seven years ago. It's a 24/7 master class...

I think I'll buy the Naniwa 3/8.

Two quick follow-up questions, if I may:

— Any reason to buy a Naniwa 12K if I have an Escher I like? Are they redundant, or is there any value in following one with the other? I don't have HAD. I have the opposite. I want my entire rig — razors and hones — to fit in a large cigar box. Years ago I sold every single hone I didn't rely on when I hone razors, which is approximately every other month...

— My understanding (and my age may be showing ) has always been that the main point of pyramids was to avoid overhoning on the 8K. As I said, most of my honing has been on coticules which don't really overhone, but I remember early on the Norton guys always talking about how to avoid wire edges from the Norton 8K. Is the Naniwa pretty much immune from that?

Back up, fellas. Are Naniwa stones natural or synthetic? Everywhere I'm looking they stop just short of telling me.

I want to know because I just told someone if he got a 12K Naniwa it would be advisable to get a slurry stone. I don't use slurry on synthetics.

The only stone I ever used slurry on is a 12K Chinese natural stone.

AND what exactly is a coticule? I have really struggled with that term.

Naniwas are synthetic. See Glen and Lynn's posts for two views regarding the use of slurry on synthetics. Coticules are a type of natural razor hone that have been quarried in Belgium for a very long time; they were pretty standard in the heyday of straight razors and are still mined and sold today.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I use a well worn DMT 325 on most, however for a true cutting slurry on the Norton 4k I use the Norton Prepstone... There are vids of all this, and threads about much of it too..

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...rt-slurry.html

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...iwa-users.html

My response is always the same when people ask about Slurry and Synthetic hones, "You had to learn how to use the Slurry on your Natural didn't you??? How to make it, how to dilute it, how to use it to an advantage" same thing with a Synthetic... You have to take the time to learn how to use it as an advantage.. The good thing is you also don't NEED it, just like a Natural waterstone you can just use clear water and do fine...

OK Glen, do you use slurry on a Naniwa 4K for bevel setting because a lower grit would be more ideal for that purpose? Do you use slurry on higher than 4K Naniwa?

I'm learning so much tonight my mind might pop.

If you read the two threads I linked it will give you a good base understanding, after that, there are several theories that come into play...

Which of them are really true I am not sure of.. I have figured out that all this is not necessary, to get a good solid shaving edge, some of this is just fun to mess with...

The first reason I started using slurries at all was that I did not have a 1k, I was still doing restores just like now, the cutting slurry from a Norton 4k and the Norton prep stone let me set bevels on big ole Sheffield wedges in a reasonable amount of time... After that I started messing with slurries on other stones and hones and I just liked the results so I kept after it...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

If you read the two threads I linked it will give you a good base understanding, after that, there are several theories that come into play...

Which of them are really true I am not sure of.. I have figured out that all this is not necessary, to get a good solid shaving edge, some of this is just fun to mess with...

The first reason I started using slurries at all was that I did not have a 1k, I was still doing restores just like now, the cutting slurry from a Norton 4k and the Norton prep stone let me set bevels on big ole Sheffield wedges in a reasonable amount of time... After that I started messing with slurries on other stones and hones and I just liked the results so I kept after it...

I think your response pretty sums up the reason it's hard to get into specifics. Sometimes you don't have the ideal equipment for a job and need to improvise. Other times you need to do something with a razor you've never done before and take things you have learned here and there and work up a solution.

I'm at a stage where I can do what I need to do and do it well, but when somebody asks you a question about honing with something you have never used you want to check it out.

Same for me. I never use slurry with any synthetic stone as, in my opinion, it does not help that much. However, just my opinion.
I do agree on the fact every razor wants its stone. In my experience, I found out German steel likes the synthetic waterstone better whereas with Sheffield steel I usually get better results with natural stones, Belgian coticule in particular.
As for finishing, I generally use a natural basalt stone, which is considered to have about a 12K grit (like the Chinese stone, although it does not make much sense talking about grits in natural stones) and I find this to work wonders for my skin and quality of shaving.
I also noticed not all the razors seems to like this treatment and some performs better with just a Naniwa 8K finishing, whereas other seems to benefit a lot from the basalt stone.
I also use chromium oxide with a generous stropping and also this works very well for the quality of shaving and for my skin.

Originally Posted by dylandog

Two quick follow-up questions, if I may:

— Any reason to buy a Naniwa 12K if I have an Escher I like? Are they redundant, or is there any value in following one with the other? I don't have HAD. I have the opposite. I want my entire rig — razors and hones — to fit in a large cigar box. Years ago I sold every single hone I didn't rely on when I hone razors, which is approximately every other month...?

In regard to "grit", yes they are pretty redundant & since you appear to be a bit of a minimalist I would just stay with the Escher & 8K edge. You may have to append a bit more time on the Escher, but it will work just fine. The reason many of us finish on higher grit synthetics is to reduce the time spent & wear on the natural finisher, using it to do a final refinement instead of removing any of the 8K scratches...make sense?

Originally Posted by dylandog

— My understanding (and my age may be showing ) has always been that the main point of pyramids was to avoid overhoning on the 8K. As I said, most of my honing has been on coticules which don't really overhone, but I remember early on the Norton guys always talking about how to avoid wire edges from the Norton 8K. Is the Naniwa pretty much immune from that?

If you are using Lynn's original pyramid method, you should be just fine. As the other gentlemen stated before me, the "grit" is the same, it's just all about the feel and what you prefer.

If I were to rate the synthetics on feel, Naniwa's feel softest, Norton's feel like a balance between the other two, Shapton GS's feel the hardest. The "grits" are pretty comparable under what limited magnification I have.

In my opinion, if you have an Escher as a finishing hone, there is no need for the 12K. You might experiment finishing with a very light slurry for a few strokes followed by water only and see what your results are. When I use the Escher after the 8K, I just use water and 10 weight of the blade X strokes.

Never had much of a problem with overhoning either on the Norton or Naniwa. If I remember the conversation way back when, people either did a couple of back honing strokes or repeated the 1-3, 1-5 on the Norton to correct the over hone.

Have fun.

Originally Posted by dylandog

Wow, thanks Lynn. Thanks everyone. This site is as awesome now as it was when I joined seven years ago. It's a 24/7 master class...

I think I'll buy the Naniwa 3/8.

Two quick follow-up questions, if I may:

— Any reason to buy a Naniwa 12K if I have an Escher I like? Are they redundant, or is there any value in following one with the other? I don't have HAD. I have the opposite. I want my entire rig — razors and hones — to fit in a large cigar box. Years ago I sold every single hone I didn't rely on when I hone razors, which is approximately every other month...

— My understanding (and my age may be showing ) has always been that the main point of pyramids was to avoid overhoning on the 8K. As I said, most of my honing has been on coticules which don't really overhone, but I remember early on the Norton guys always talking about how to avoid wire edges from the Norton 8K. Is the Naniwa pretty much immune from that?

To the OP, if time is an issue, as you indicated, you truly might consider the Norton 4/8 as they can perpetually soak and need flattening less often than the Nanis, which cannot be soaked long and need frequent light flattening. This is from my personal experience. YMMV