Big trouble with Naniwa Superstones 10000 and 12000

Guys, I'm in desperate need for help, as my 10k and 12k Naniwa Superstones are giving me a hard time. They keep on to destroy my edges and I am running out of ideas what could be my fault.

I'm not sure if anyone else had these problems as I doubt the effect would be visible without a microscope or a good loupe.

I am building up my edge using 0800, 3000, 5000 and 8000. Then I would switch to 10000 to finish the job. As I had these problems with the 10k, I also bought the 12k and skipped the 10k. However the 12k is giving me the same bad results.

This is the state I end with my 8k

Attachment 130961

At the time I took the photos, I already had issues before, so I watered the 10k stone again under the fauced, checked again against the light, held my breath and did three or five very light strokes, slowly, feeling and listening to any unwanted "kr". Nothing traitorous, and still the outcome was this:

Attachment 130962


No, I did not pick the stone out of the trash bin, and I do this stuff in the kitchen, not in the workshop. And this is no single accident.

Contamination is what I thought, when these problems first occured. I used to lap all stones on a plate of glass with 600grit wet-paper and lots of water. I also used a nagura stone.

I thought, that if one of the 600grit corns would somehow stick in the surface of the stone, it might cause such a damage. So I changed my laping strategy: I now lap the 800 on the glas and sandpaper, then I lap the 3000 on the 800 (under the running faucet), the 5000 is lapped with the 3000 and so forth.
With the higer grit stones I use to prelap with the 5000 or 3000 and then also finish lapping with the stone's next smaller grit. A very tedious work.
I also abandoned the nagura, as I saw another unknown factor in that.

I tried and retried. Meanwhile stones have been laped several times. I never ever have anything like that with the 8k stone - I can do with or without pressure, x-strokes, circles - anything - lovely stone.

Yesterday I stepped from the 8k to the 12k. And it happened again

8k:
Attachment 130966

The edge was not perfect and would have done a little more work on the 3k or 5k. However the decision, which one to take was not necessary after the use of the 12k:
Attachment 130967

The 12k looks so bad now because I was angry and not willing to accept the fact and because it had thrown me back to bevel-setting on the 800 anyway. Right before I used the 12k, I lapped 8k and 12 against each other and watered the 12k generously.

How come that these stones keep on doing such a dramatic damage. What am I doing wrong or are the stones simply defect?

As this always happens after normally a few hours of careful work, this really turns me down and I'm currently kind of desperate.

Any help is gladly welcome.

Frank

Is this on the same razor? Are you having the same problem when honing other razors?

One possibility could be weak steel.

More likely, though, is the possibility that you are transferring pieces of the grit of the sandpaper as you lap the stones against each other as you go up the progression. It's hard to imagine that being the case, though, in your 12K photo, and that photo appears to argue more for weak steel. Your 12K edge looks like no other I've seen, and that refers not only to the micro-chipping but the scratches on the bevel. My 12K does not leave scratches like that. I missed any mention on how many laps you are doing, but my bevels, after only 20 laps, are smooth and polished.

I'd recommend holding off on the sandpaper for a while, borrowing a DMT and starting over to determine if that makes a difference.

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Originally Posted by coachschaller

Is this on the same razor? Are you having the same problem when honing other razors?

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Any razor, Any time. I'm watching this over weeks now. The first two are from a Ralf Aust (Carbon steel), the second pair is from a DOVO (stainless steel)

The 8K edge looks nice. That's a strange problem to have with the 10K and 12K $100 man-made rocks.

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Originally Posted by ace

One possibility could be weak steel.

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I get this with any razor. The first two pictures are from a brand new Ralf Aust.

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Originally Posted by ace

More likely, though, is the possibility that you are transferring pieces of the grit of the sandpaper as you lap the stones against each other as you go up the progression. It's hard to imagine that being the case, though, in your 12K photo, and that photo appears to argue more for weak steel. Your 12K edge looks like no other I've seen, and that refers not only to the micro-chipping but the scratches on the bevel. My 12K does not leave scratches like that. I missed any mention on how many laps you are doing, but my bevels, after only 20 laps, are smooth and polished. I'd recommend holding off on the sandpaper for a while, borrowing a DMT and starting over to determine if that makes a difference.

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DMTs are hard to get in germany, but yes, I did not use the sandpaper yesterday. I also do not lap them all in one go and the 10k and 12 I laped again and again using only 3k, 5k and 8k or 10k. Each time I draw lines onto the stone using a pen (blift?) and lap until the lines are gone. Even if I originally had grit from the sandpaper somewhere in the progression it would be out by now. And I am lapping the 10k /12k with the 8k, and never have anything like that with the 8k.
I would even say that the damage is much worse than 600 grit paper. My bevel setter is an 800 grit stone and it's a lot more generous to my blades. The paper I used last time was paper, I used before, being a lot softer than 600 by then.

I did not do many laps as it gets worse each stroke.
By the way, compared to the 8k, that feels totally smooth, the 12k feels a bit "grainy".

the 12k sample I took after several strokes (15 or 20, maybe 25), not willing to accept that this will remain. I mean, even if it is dust or grain from somewhere, it should be taken away sooner or later.

After the first two or three strokes it looked like this:

Attachment 130970

Attachment 130971

Looks like some kind of contamination to me; there seem to always be scratches starting at each of the chips on up to the top of the bevel.

Not sure what I would recommend, other than a good lapping (have you tried a diamond plate? Lapping two soft stones against each other will cause both to break down, and, with the same brand/make of stone, the lower grit one is probably the softer of the two) or, if all else fails, seeing if you can return/exchange them.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Looks like some kind of contamination to me; there seem to always be scratches starting at each of the chips on up to the top of the bevel.

Not sure what I would recommend, other than a good lapping (have you tried a diamond plate? Lapping two soft stones against each other will cause both to break down, and, with the same brand/make of stone, the lower grit one is probably the softer of the two) or, if all else fails, seeing if you can return/exchange them.

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I have no diamond plate available and I tried lapping over and over again. My naniwa vendor recommended lapping the 10k with 5k and doing it the way I do. I always see the finer grit come off. So that works. When I lap them against each other I do an eight-motion so that the whole surface is covered.

I already have a return label for the 10k and I'll try to get one for the 12k as well, but wanted to see if there is anything I am possibly doing wrong. Also, I am afraid that I will get the same on a new one.

Just a question here,
With all the lapping have you put, and if so does it still have a decent radius on the edges?

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Originally Posted by pfries

Just a question here,
With all the lapping have you put, and if so does it still have a decent radius on the edges?

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Very good question, indeed. One of the last ideas, I have in the back of my mind and one thing I wanted to try out as soon as I gained enough energy to do so.

To answer Your question. Due to lapping the rounded edges disappeared and I every now and then went along them using the nagura, the other stone or a rough stone. This I do in a 45° angle and a along-and-downwards motion - away from the surface - and a good amount of water afterwards.

Im using circles or x-strokes with a bit of rolling as the DOVOS are slightly rounded on tip and heel. So I basicly start an x-stroke with the heel on the edge.
If the edges are the cause, I would assume toe and heel being major target, but that is not the case.

Wow - that is some serious scratching/chipping!

I have had that set of stones - the 10k and the 12k seem quite soft, so I can imagine that something could easily embed itself in the surface.

I would try lapping again. You can get DMTs from Dictum gmbh in Germany, I think. Bit pricey, though. You can get Atoma diamond plates - IMO better than DMT - from Dieter Schmid - fine-tools.com

If that is not possible, a good grade of wet-and-dry paper - not ordinary glasspaper - and pre-used at that, so that stray grains have already been dislodged. Used with copious amounts of water, the pre-used wet-and-dry paper should be OK. You might want to go higher than 600 grit, just to see if that helps solve the problem. Arris the edges on the glass mounted glasspaper, and wash down the surface of the stone with lots of water, and perhaps a nylon scrubbie.

If the stones still leave that sort of damage, they must have hard inclusions in them - a factory problem.

Regards,
Neil

If the issue is indeed contamination, my suggestion is, if you own a coticule slurry stone or some other high grit natural rub your naniwas with it and see if that changes things.

I agree with Neil, your 8k does not show any of the issues you see with your 10 and 12k, so if there is not contamination, then there must be something wrong with the hones when they were made.

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Wow - that is some serious scratching/chipping!
I have had that set of stones - the 10k and the 12k seem quite soft, so I can imagine that something could easily embed itself in the surface.
I would try lapping again. You can get DMTs from Dictum gmbh in Germany, I think. Bit pricey, though. You can get Atoma diamond plates - IMO better than DMT - from Dieter Schmid - fine-tools.com
If that is not possible, a good grade of wet-and-dry paper - not ordinary glasspaper - and pre-used at that, so that stray grains have already been dislodged. Used with copious amounts of water, the pre-used wet-and-dry paper should be OK. You might want to go higher than 600 grit, just to see if that helps solve the problem. Arris the edges on the glass mounted glasspaper, and wash down the surface of the stone with lots of water, and perhaps a nylon scrubbie.
If the stones still leave that sort of damage, they must have hard inclusions in them - a factory problem.

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I was looking for DMT and found them at DICTUM, quite pricy as You said. Dieter Schmid is a good idea, he runs his shop here in town.
As most of You guys are using these Diamont plates, I also wanted to go for them - on the other side it should be possible to go without.

I would say, I have lapped the stones about ten times by now. When I switched from Sandpaper to stone to stone I was lapping for about five or six hours (!). One of my fingers was dumb for two days after that.

I understand that contamination can occur accidentally once in a while, but I have not one single blade of eight or ten over the past four weeks that did not have one or more of these.
The 12k only has seen sandpaper once about two or three weeks ago. since then it has been lapped by 3000+ grits only and nagura.

You guys all seem to be quite satisfied and easy with those.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

If the issue is indeed contamination, my suggestion is, if you own a coticule slurry stone or some other high grit natural rub your naniwas with it and see if that changes things.

I agree with Neil, your 8k does not show any of the issues you see with your 10 and 12k, so if there is not contamination, then there must be something wrong with the hones when they were made.

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I only do have a nagura, that I now put aside as I was not sure if it possibly could be the source.

My 8k is lovely, it's sooo smooth and I can work on it with or without pressure. If I do circles on it, it gives me an almost mirror-shine, even under the microscope.
For the third and fourth picture of my OP, I finished on the 8k (image #3), then I rubbed this 8k against the 12k under the running faucet and then started the 12k without touching it with anything else (image # 4). If I carried grain from somewhere, I think some of it should also appear in the 5k and 8k which is not the case.

:-(

I recommend some more diagnostics with the stones. Do a few strokes on a 1-2cm lenth of stone and inspect. Then go to the next segment and repeat. See if there are zones with problematic grits. Get in there with straight strokes to find the location of problem areas, and take your magnifier to that spot on the stone to look for anomalies. I agree with others it may be an embedded grit. I've become much more light-handed with sandpaper on my stones after finding some embedded grit after several relaps.

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Originally Posted by Tierdaen

I recommend some more diagnostics with the stones. Do a few strokes on a 1-2cm lenth of stone and inspect. Then go to the next segment and repeat. See if there are zones with problematic grits. Get in there with straight strokes to find the location of problem areas, and take your magnifier to that spot on the stone to look for anomalies. I agree with others it may be an embedded grit. I've become much more light-handed with sandpaper on my stones after finding some embedded grit after several relaps.

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Thanks, I'll do that. I started something like that yesterday, but only by feel. Problem is, that it'll take me a razor without chips at a 5k level or so.
Maybe I'll try with japanese scraper and by this way do training in bevel-setting from "breadknife state". :-D

somehow this all can't be.. You buy stones for a few hundred bucks and need to lap half of it down the sink in order to make them usable. the 12k stone came with a rounded edge of something like 1mm. That edge is completely gone by now. Am I looking for embeded bricks ? (just talking to myself)

There must be someone in Berlin you can get together with and let them try out your stones, maybe someone who's got a diamond plate!

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Originally Posted by Lemur

There must be someone in Berlin you can get together with and let them try out your stones, maybe someone who's got a diamond plate!

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Would be great if someone reads it and says "hello"....

Meanwhile I got my vendors "OK" to return both stones and I spoke to "Dieter Schmid". You guys all seem to swear on the diamond plates, but they can't be the holy grail. It should be possible without. The guy from Dieter Schmid confirmed that Diamond plates also loose grit every now and then.

We can all sit here and guess what is happening however the issue you have is not common but something is causing those scratches and chips and you are spending way too much time on this. Are you sure you are not hitting the edge of the stone as you hone causing this problem?

Sounds like contamination, especially since you are using sandpaper. I would first clean your stones with cleanser and a scotch-brite pad and rinse and scrub again with the scotch-brite under running water.

Then take a straight edged kitchen knife and run the knife slowly over the stone to detect any snagging grit. A large knife may dislodge the imbedded grit. Also as recommended insure the edges are well beveled or rounded.

If you use wet and dry, (I use W/D lapping natural stones) use quality paper.

Lastly, bite the bullet and purchase a diamond plate, if you are going to hone, a diamond plate will make your life so much easier and give you consistent surface on your stones.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

We can all sit here and guess what is happening however the issue you have is not common but something is causing those scratches and chips and you are spending way too much time on this...

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Yes, You can only guess, and I am grateful for all Your thoughts. Sometimes it is the obvious that is not in sight.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

... Are you sure you are not hitting the edge of the stone as you hone causing this problem?

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Quite sure. But I'll hopefully be sure after tonight.

What I have in mind is
- break the edges, probably with a clean steel file
- lap the stone again with a 5k and 8k stone (pen grid until vanished)
- careful straight strokes with a prepared razor or something like a scraper and examination.

Thx

Have you looked at the stone under magnification,just curious.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Sounds like contamination, especially since you are using sandpaper. I would first clean your stones with cleanser and a scotch-brite pad and rinse and scrub again with the scotch-brite under running water.

Then take a straight edged kitchen knife and run the knife slowly over the stone to detect any snagging grit. A large knife may dislodge the imbedded grit. Also as recommended insure the edges are well beveled or rounded.

If you use wet and dry, (I use W/D lapping natural stones) use quality paper.

Lastly, bite the bullet and purchase a diamond plate, if you are going to hone, a diamond plate will make your life so much easier and give you consistent surface on your stones.

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Yes, it sounds and looks like contamination. but I have taken milimeters away since I last used sandpaper. Sandpaper I used was used wet paper by 3m with 600 grain.

I will buy a diamond plate. Wanted to do it anyway since You all guys seem to use ist successfully. DMT is not easy to get in Germany but the tip by Neil Miller to use Atoma was helpful.
On the other hand, I am not willing to accept that good results are only possible when using a diamond plate.

As I said in my OP, I am not sure if anyone of You, not using a microscope, would ever realize this happen. You will probably not see those with a 30 power loupe, unless there are lots of them.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Have you looked at the stone under magnification,just curious.

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I had the idea, but forgot. Will do tonight if I can get it into view and / or detect anything causing this.

Thx

Some stone manufacturers actually don't recommend using sandpaper for flattening their stones.Also, are you honing under running water? It might help. From what I see, it must be the stones.

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Originally Posted by DDTech

I had the idea, but forgot. Will do tonight if I can get it into view and / or detect anything causing this.

Thx

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That may be interesting,hope you can do it.Not a clue as to what you may be looking for but should you send the stones back to the vendor I am certain that would be the first thing they would do.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

That may be interesting,hope you can do it.Not a clue as to what you may be looking for but should you send the stones back to the vendor I am certain that would be the first thing they would do.

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Yes, for them as well as for me... maybe for some of You also. Actually I think, I'll pack my things soon and leave the office...

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

Some stone manufacturers actually don't recommend using sandpaper for flattening their stones.Also, are you honing under running water? It might help. From what I see, it must be the stones.

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I read a post from someone who is doing the finer grits under running water. I did not try yet, as it was too dangerous. My sink is quite deep. I would have to have a "bridge" to put the stone on. However, every now and then, I hold the stone under running water.

DMTs im Deutschland hier; DMT® Diamantsteine | DICTUM GmbH - Mehr als Werkzeug

If it were one stone, I'd say bad stone. But if you have two different fine grits doing the same thing, it's probably something else. What are the chances you got two bad stones from two different batches?

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Originally Posted by eod7

If it were one stone, I'd say bad stone. But if you have two different fine grits doing the same thing, it's probably something else. What are the chances you got two bad stones from two different batches?

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That's why I have not sent them back yet. I still think, that I might have done something wrong. But running out of ideas, I'm looking for help

When you hone do you go edge leading only or do you do backstrokes too?
If you do a lot of backstrokes you can get a wire edge and if it falls of when honing it can really mess things up.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

When you hone do you go edge leading only or do you do backstrokes too?
If you do a lot of backstrokes you can get a wire edge and if it falls of when honing it can really mess things up.

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I do only edge forward. Between Image #1 and #2 of the OP, there is only something like three to five very light x-strokes between them.

It's really puzzling!

More pictures/videos might help someone spotting the problem.

The smooth side of a glass bottle rubbed on the hone may tell it there is something stuck in it.

Try rubbing them together face to face and look for scratches on the hones?

This looks like a pressure problem to me. Go back to 1000 grit and create a chip free bevel. Then progress to the 12k using very light pressure and the results should be fine.

Been following... And all that's been done is very interesting. I don't want this to sound like I'm being a smart a.., but how does the razor shave? I know there's a scratch and a chip that you need a glass to see, but if it shaves ok... It might be time to give it a rest.
I'm far from knowing what I'm doing with straights, but i don't have a glass as part of design. It would just trouble me to much if I were to look at each blade that way.

I agree with tbs that we can only guess from our computers but even at 8k I see big scratches in your bevels. I believe you have 8oo grit scratches still present that are chipping as you thin & polish to 12k. Pressure, poor steel,faulty stones & excess honing can all be a factors but you may be able to eliminate the problem I describe with more time on 3k or even by adding a 1k to the progression. If you are pressing too hard & crumbling the steel or the stones that is also easily remedied by lightening up. Again we can't guess how much pressure you use.

An additional testing approach is to use the higher grit stones at a very different angle to the heavy scratches you're getting to be sure that the scratches are coming from the higher grit stones and not simply being revealed by them.

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Originally Posted by rjezuit

Try rubbing them together face to face and look for scratches on the hones?

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No scratches, I rub them together all the time.