Thread: Big trouble with Naniwa Superstones 10000 and 12000

Guys, I'm in desperate need for help, as my 10k and 12k Naniwa Superstones are giving me a hard time. They keep on to destroy my edges and I am running out of ideas what could be my fault.

I'm not sure if anyone else had these problems as I doubt the effect would be visible without a microscope or a good loupe.

I am building up my edge using 0800, 3000, 5000 and 8000. Then I would switch to 10000 to finish the job. As I had these problems with the 10k, I also bought the 12k and skipped the 10k. However the 12k is giving me the same bad results.

This is the state I end with my 8k



At the time I took the photos, I already had issues before, so I watered the 10k stone again under the fauced, checked again against the light, held my breath and did three or five very light strokes, slowly, feeling and listening to any unwanted "kr". Nothing traitorous, and still the outcome was this:




No, I did not pick the stone out of the trash bin, and I do this stuff in the kitchen, not in the workshop. And this is no single accident.

Contamination is what I thought, when these problems first occured. I used to lap all stones on a plate of glass with 600grit wet-paper and lots of water. I also used a nagura stone.

I thought, that if one of the 600grit corns would somehow stick in the surface of the stone, it might cause such a damage. So I changed my laping strategy: I now lap the 800 on the glas and sandpaper, then I lap the 3000 on the 800 (under the running faucet), the 5000 is lapped with the 3000 and so forth.
With the higer grit stones I use to prelap with the 5000 or 3000 and then also finish lapping with the stone's next smaller grit. A very tedious work.
I also abandoned the nagura, as I saw another unknown factor in that.

I tried and retried. Meanwhile stones have been laped several times. I never ever have anything like that with the 8k stone - I can do with or without pressure, x-strokes, circles - anything - lovely stone.

Yesterday I stepped from the 8k to the 12k. And it happened again

8k:


The edge was not perfect and would have done a little more work on the 3k or 5k. However the decision, which one to take was not necessary after the use of the 12k:


The 12k looks so bad now because I was angry and not willing to accept the fact and because it had thrown me back to bevel-setting on the 800 anyway. Right before I used the 12k, I lapped 8k and 12 against each other and watered the 12k generously.

How come that these stones keep on doing such a dramatic damage. What am I doing wrong or are the stones simply defect?

As this always happens after normally a few hours of careful work, this really turns me down and I'm currently kind of desperate.

Any help is gladly welcome.

Frank

Is this on the same razor? Are you having the same problem when honing other razors?

One possibility could be weak steel.

More likely, though, is the possibility that you are transferring pieces of the grit of the sandpaper as you lap the stones against each other as you go up the progression. It's hard to imagine that being the case, though, in your 12K photo, and that photo appears to argue more for weak steel. Your 12K edge looks like no other I've seen, and that refers not only to the micro-chipping but the scratches on the bevel. My 12K does not leave scratches like that. I missed any mention on how many laps you are doing, but my bevels, after only 20 laps, are smooth and polished.

I'd recommend holding off on the sandpaper for a while, borrowing a DMT and starting over to determine if that makes a difference.

Originally Posted by coachschaller

Is this on the same razor? Are you having the same problem when honing other razors?

Any razor, Any time. I'm watching this over weeks now. The first two are from a Ralf Aust (Carbon steel), the second pair is from a DOVO (stainless steel)

The 8K edge looks nice. That's a strange problem to have with the 10K and 12K $100 man-made rocks.

Originally Posted by ace

One possibility could be weak steel.

I get this with any razor. The first two pictures are from a brand new Ralf Aust.

Originally Posted by ace

More likely, though, is the possibility that you are transferring pieces of the grit of the sandpaper as you lap the stones against each other as you go up the progression. It's hard to imagine that being the case, though, in your 12K photo, and that photo appears to argue more for weak steel. Your 12K edge looks like no other I've seen, and that refers not only to the micro-chipping but the scratches on the bevel. My 12K does not leave scratches like that. I missed any mention on how many laps you are doing, but my bevels, after only 20 laps, are smooth and polished. I'd recommend holding off on the sandpaper for a while, borrowing a DMT and starting over to determine if that makes a difference.

DMTs are hard to get in germany, but yes, I did not use the sandpaper yesterday. I also do not lap them all in one go and the 10k and 12 I laped again and again using only 3k, 5k and 8k or 10k. Each time I draw lines onto the stone using a pen (blift?) and lap until the lines are gone. Even if I originally had grit from the sandpaper somewhere in the progression it would be out by now. And I am lapping the 10k /12k with the 8k, and never have anything like that with the 8k.
I would even say that the damage is much worse than 600 grit paper. My bevel setter is an 800 grit stone and it's a lot more generous to my blades. The paper I used last time was paper, I used before, being a lot softer than 600 by then.

I did not do many laps as it gets worse each stroke.
By the way, compared to the 8k, that feels totally smooth, the 12k feels a bit "grainy".

the 12k sample I took after several strokes (15 or 20, maybe 25), not willing to accept that this will remain. I mean, even if it is dust or grain from somewhere, it should be taken away sooner or later.

After the first two or three strokes it looked like this:

Looks like some kind of contamination to me; there seem to always be scratches starting at each of the chips on up to the top of the bevel.

Not sure what I would recommend, other than a good lapping (have you tried a diamond plate? Lapping two soft stones against each other will cause both to break down, and, with the same brand/make of stone, the lower grit one is probably the softer of the two) or, if all else fails, seeing if you can return/exchange them.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Looks like some kind of contamination to me; there seem to always be scratches starting at each of the chips on up to the top of the bevel.

Not sure what I would recommend, other than a good lapping (have you tried a diamond plate? Lapping two soft stones against each other will cause both to break down, and, with the same brand/make of stone, the lower grit one is probably the softer of the two) or, if all else fails, seeing if you can return/exchange them.

I have no diamond plate available and I tried lapping over and over again. My naniwa vendor recommended lapping the 10k with 5k and doing it the way I do. I always see the finer grit come off. So that works. When I lap them against each other I do an eight-motion so that the whole surface is covered.

I already have a return label for the 10k and I'll try to get one for the 12k as well, but wanted to see if there is anything I am possibly doing wrong. Also, I am afraid that I will get the same on a new one.

Just a question here,
With all the lapping have you put, and if so does it still have a decent radius on the edges?

Originally Posted by pfries

Just a question here,
With all the lapping have you put, and if so does it still have a decent radius on the edges?

Very good question, indeed. One of the last ideas, I have in the back of my mind and one thing I wanted to try out as soon as I gained enough energy to do so.

To answer Your question. Due to lapping the rounded edges disappeared and I every now and then went along them using the nagura, the other stone or a rough stone. This I do in a 45° angle and a along-and-downwards motion - away from the surface - and a good amount of water afterwards.

Im using circles or x-strokes with a bit of rolling as the DOVOS are slightly rounded on tip and heel. So I basicly start an x-stroke with the heel on the edge.
If the edges are the cause, I would assume toe and heel being major target, but that is not the case.