Thread: Big trouble with Naniwa Superstones 10000 and 12000

Originally Posted by DDTech

But that's OK, is it? This is not the one You were talking about, being responsible for issues?

Well, yes, any irregular shiny bits would indicate an anomaly in the edge.
Ideally the edge will have minimal reflection not easily seen with a loupe.

I have Chosera 400 and 600 for repair work and bevel setting post bread knifing. They work great bringing bevels together quickly. But one of the things I have noticed is, if I try to completely bevel set, bring the bevels together to a sharp intersection where it will cut hair with the 600, I get micro chipping on the edge when moving on the 1K and higher grit stones.

In order to cure the chipping I lightly bread knife on the corner of the stone, enough to get a straight thin line of steel on the edge, 1-2 light strokes, then very light strokes on the 600 to reduce the land height leaving still a thin line of flat steel on the edge, when looking straight down at the edge.

I then set the bevel completely on the 1k with light strokes, not much pressure is needed as the geometry is done by the 4 & 600. 1k circles remove the high spots and bring the bevels together quickly without chipping. I believe anything less than a properly set up, surfaced 1k leaves stria grooves too deep in the bevel that weaken the edge and can surface later.

I used to raise filed off serial numbers on firearms and was constantly amazed at how deep the stamping actually affected the steel.

The other issue is pressure. I was restoring a car with a novice restorer who was constantly breaking off bolts. I would tell him to tighten it “tight” and then I would hear a grunt and Oops! I had to give him a setting and a torque wrench until he could calibrate the correct amount of pressure to generate. It is my experience novice honers often use way too much pressure at bevel setting in a hurry to get a sharp edge. Saying light pressure has no meaning when there is no point of reference.

Like most things, the foundations we lay, dramatically affect the finish.

I would start at the beginning and reset the bevel with “light” strokes on your bevel setter, stopping short of a sharp edge, then completely set the edge on your next higher stone, the 3K I believe again with light pressure. The goal is to produce a smooth stress free bevel and edge removing the 800 stria, it may take some time…then polish the edge with your higher grit stones.

Are all your stones Naniwa Superstones? What is the 800? Are you prepping all your stones with the Diamond plate?

Originally Posted by Euclid440

I have Chosera 400 and 600 for repair work and bevel setting post bread knifing. They work great bringing bevels together quickly. But one of the things I have noticed is, if I try to completely bevel set, bring the bevels together to a sharp intersection where it will cut hair with the 600, I get micro chipping on the edge when moving on the 1K and higher grit stones.

In order to cure the chipping I lightly bread knife on the corner of the stone, enough to get a straight thin line of steel on the edge, 1-2 light strokes, then very light strokes on the 600 to reduce the land height leaving still a thin line of flat steel on the edge, when looking straight down at the edge.

I then set the bevel completely on the 1k with light strokes, not much pressure is needed as the geometry is done by the 4 & 600. 1k circles remove the high spots and bring the bevels together quickly without chipping. I believe anything less than a properly set up, surfaced 1k leaves stria grooves too deep in the bevel that weaken the edge and can surface later.

It makes sense and is something, that can seen or guessed under the microscope. With coarse stones You end up with a "huge" distance between "mountains" and "valleys". Higher grit stones cut off the mountains and equalize the surface. However, as we grind on both sides. Chances are there, that a valley on one side faces a mountan on the other side. Cutting off this mountain eventually makes the material so thin that it on the way of progression simply vanishes.

In my case the chips where x-times as big as the coarsesd grit I used. There was not the slightest announcement of it up to 12k and sometimes with one stroke, it hit the blade. When I went slow and alert, could feel and hear the moment it happened (past tense, as I have not tried another one yet).

Originally Posted by Euclid440

I used to raise filed off serial numbers on firearms and was constantly amazed at how deep the stamping actually affected the steel.

Yes, I've heard that before. The impact on setting the number changes the structure of the metal way deep down.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

The other issue is pressure. I was restoring a car with a novice restorer who was constantly breaking off bolts. I would tell him to tighten it “tight” and then I would hear a grunt and Oops! I had to give him a setting and a torque wrench until he could calibrate the correct amount of pressure to generate. It is my experience novice honers often use way too much pressure at bevel setting in a hurry to get a sharp edge. Saying light pressure has no meaning when there is no point of reference.

There are lots of these "soft" values like tight, sharp, babybutt, pressure, etc., when You handle a straight razor. All very subjective and their quality highly depending on experience. sharp is not "1.24 sharp". It rather is "yes, feels sharp" until You hold something in Your hand that is even sharper. Then You say "ah, this is sharp. that was not really sharp". Same with pressure. A heavy duty metal worker will have another "much pressure" than a stamp collector.

I "think", my pressure is OK, but a honemaster might disagree. If someone like Lynn Abrams in his videos recommends something like 40 circles + 30x-strokes to get the job on a 3k stone done and I am somewhere in that range or even need more strokes, I tend to be on the good side concerning pressure.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Like most things, the foundations we lay, dramatically affect the finish.

Yes, You can't build well on a weak basis. Most of the work I do is done on the lower grits.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

I would start at the beginning and reset the bevel with “light” strokes on your bevel setter, stopping short of a sharp edge, then completely set the edge on your next higher stone, the 3K I believe again with light pressure. The goal is to produce a smooth stress free bevel and edge removing the 800 stria, it may take some time…then polish the edge with your higher grit stones.

That's my goal

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Are all your stones Naniwa Superstones? What is the 800? Are you prepping all your stones with the Diamond plate?

yes all Naniwa. I know 1000 is the normal bevel setter, but when I bought them I could only get the 800/5000 combo.
Yes, I do now all treat them with the diamond plate. Just have it since a few days.

Originally Posted by DDTech

yes all Naniwa. I know 1000 is the normal bevel setter, but when I bought them I could only get the 800/5000 combo.
Yes, I do now all treat them with the diamond plate. Just have it since a few days.

When I used Kings I found the 800 & 1200 were very different. I often also thought 1200 to 4000 was a bit of a jump but I managed.

I now find the Shapton Pro 1000 & 1500, which I use these days, also very different but moreso in composition & action than scratch size tho that differs too. The 2000 is different again & is the point I assess if a bevel is set cleanly & chip free. Depending on what I want to achieve I can use all 3 stones on a razor.

What I'm saying is the 1k may be a good investment for setting a "good foundation".

I'm very comfortable jumping from 5k to 12k. 8k is not crucial but in the low grits I find the opposite. I may be a bit 'precious' about working my 5k but I think low grit stones should wear out first.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

.... What I'm saying is the 1k may be a good investment for setting a "good foundation".

I agree, during this "marathon" I found that the marks created by the 800 require a lot of work on the 3k.
I (think) I will return the stones and for a re-buy instead of the 3k/10k combo and the 12k I will go for single 1k (or something in that range), 3k and 12k. I did not have the 12k in the beginning, but now think it is not needed anymore. The step from 8k to 12k is a small one compared to the one from 800 to 3k.

Frank

1,3,8,12 would work.