Thread: Big trouble with Naniwa Superstones 10000 and 12000

Neil,

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I was really hoping that the Atoma would sort the problem out for you.

Thanks, I'm not through with this. I used it as it came from the vendor. So it really could be contamination this time.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Maybe you should look at other things rather than the finishing hones. As Onimaru pointed out, you shouldn't be using heavy pressure on the 8k hone - in my experience that is a sure way to get a burr/wire-edge or micro-chip the bevel due to its fragility at this stage and the fineness of the grit. If pressure is necessary, then I only use it at bevel-setting, on a 600 or 1k hone.

I'm not using much pressure with all the hones. I just make sure the blade can be controlled. It's about the same as I do stropping, just with the edge forward. Even with the 800 grit I sometimes do just a little more.
All my razors are full hollow and I am afraid that with too much pressure, I am bending the blade and that way change the angle. Also if something happens, it gets worse the more pressure and speed is behind it. I rather try to go slow and easy and do a few more laps.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

The bits of foreign matter you have pictured look like the remnants of a wire-edge, particularly the ones that are a bit shiny. The darker bits could still be steel that has rusted and gone black or brown. Maybe the reason your 8k isn't affected is because you are taking the razor to the 10k/12k with the burr still on it?

No there is nothing lost from the edge except the chips. The blade is stainless steel and I had just before ripped the top layer of the stone off with the diamond plate.
The little "worm" actually looks being embedded in the stone.

Actually the edge is not ready yet. It needs some more 3k and 5k and there is no burr. Still scratches from the 800 that I need to get rid off
I can take the razor directly from 800 to 12k and have this effect immeadiately after a few strokes. That's what I did yesterday.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

You also mentioned how long it is taking you to hone the razor - that seems way too long to me, and usually represents the extra work that a problem blade gives rise to (eg one with a warp/kink in the spine).

In any event, the 10k and 12k hones you have do not require an excessive amount of laps: personally I got best results around 20 - 30 laps, but some people say they do 50 - 60 (which would be excessive for me).

I do a lot more control work than You experienced guys have to. I do a few strokes, touch it, look at it, put it under the microscope, check both sides, play with the light etc. That takes a lot of time.

800 is as coarse as I currently have. With this it takes some time to get rid of the chips.

Yes, I do need more strokes than others, but when the microscope shows me the edge is not there, the edge is not there. It takes the same time with all the razors I have done so far (just something like ten) and it's getting better and better.
One of the reasons why it takes me so long is, that I sometimes am not keen enough to go back to a lower level and do the work with the wrong (too fine) grit. Let's say I switch to 3k from bevel setting, but I'm not perfectly ready with that, which I realize when working with the 3k. Instead of going back to 800 I tend to keep on staying with 3k... but I'm getting better on that. It's learning which tool to use for what.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

All your chips should be removed and the bevels set by the 1k mark. Then you just refine on the other hones. Just to make sure that there are no burr issues, you could try commencing with some half-laps on each stone (ie rubbing the blade - gently - up and down on one side, flipping it and doing the same on the other side) before proceeding conventionally.

Yes, that's what I've learned over time. You guys may laugh about me using the microscope, but for me it is a great support in developing my senses. I feel the sharpness of the edge and actually can see in what condition the edge really is at that time. I can do 20 circles on 800 or 3k and see what the stones actually do.

This way I have learned that it is close to impossible to establish a proper edge when this has not been done correctly on the 800 or 1k level.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Most people do not use a slurry (and I think the manufacturer says not to) with these stones, but I always have. Just a light slurry thinned with water - it helps to prevent a wire edge forming in the first place as well as speeding the work up a bit. On the last couple of hones I always thin down to plain water though. Been doing it for years and it has not hurt my superstones or choseras.

OK, I think I could build up slurry with the nagura. However to me this feels somehow grainy. You probably do it with a natural stone.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I'm not trying to teach you how to suck eggs, but you could give these things a try if you haven't already done so, just to rule another thing out.

On this I'm basicly a beginner, trying to get the best outcome, sitting alone in my kitchen with my senses and my technical gimick. I'm greatful for any hint I get.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

BTW, although a DMT 600 is a sound hone for setting a bevel on, I don't think you will like the feel of the Atoma for bevel setting. The random nature of the diamond clusters on Atomas has a freaky feel to it to me on a razor.

Actually, I meant this as a joke. But maybe I'll give it a careful try (could pre-test with the utility-knife-blade). Bevel setting and removing the chips with 800 is very tedious.

At least I do get a lot of honing practice.

Frank

Originally Posted by Lemur

I was also thinking broken off wire edge.
You could try and strop it between the hones, I do it on my hand.

Yes, I know You said this in an earlier post. But how should this happen. There is not yet a burr. But I could also strop it sure.

Anyway, I'll have to redo the ege and go back to 800

Originally Posted by Lemur

Suck eggs, how do you do that?

A hole on each side, one slightly bigger than the other :-)

Originally Posted by Lemur

You do take some nice photos, what's your camera, USB microscope?

Yes, actually quite cheap. I had to do some modifications, but now it's doing nice for me. I can post something about it, if there is an interest.

Originally Posted by DDTech

Yes, actually quite cheap. I had to do some modifications, but now it's doing nice for me. I can post something about it, if there is an interest.

Please do, always nice to see how people have solved different things.

... You do know that if you finally do find the culprit and don't post about it, you will be condemned for eternity!

Originally Posted by DDTech

Consecutive strokes then seemed to be OK. But what else could I do? How on earth could I make sure this does not happen?
For testing purposes, I did a shortcut here. In real life, I'd introduce myself to the 12k stone after some two three hours of working up the progression.

OK. Taking your time is fine if you're new but how many strokes might you be doing. ?
Because you have the same problem with 2 stones, 10 & 12k I can't help thinking it is user error. You say you don't use much pressure but if the edge is formed long before you finish you can get a burr or wire or simply bits of the edge breaking off. I'm wondering what the bevel looks like before you feel the random grain that appears. Just some thoughts.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

OK. Taking your time is fine if you're new but how many strokes might you be doing. ?
Because you have the same problem with 2 stones, 10 & 12k I can't help thinking it is user error. You say you don't use much pressure but if the edge is formed long before you finish you can get a burr or wire or simply bits of the edge breaking off. I'm wondering what the bevel looks like before you feel the random grain that appears. Just some thoughts.

Most of the time I do on the 800 and 3k stones. The rest is done quickly. The higher the grit, the shorter the time on the stone.

I'm still kind of a beginner concerning honing, still learning. And if I'm doing something dramatically wrong, I need to find out and change.

I may be wrong with the burr, but I don't think there is one. If You look at image #1 and #2 of my initial post. There are five very light and slow strokes between the first and the second picture.
During the tests in this thread I sometimes directly went from the 800 to the 12k stone and still had the issue.

I have also never lost material. If those chips appear, the rest of the edge is totally intact.

I may have missed it somewhere in the thread but out of curiosity at what magnification are we looking at the edge? The reason I am asking is on the basis of if you magnify anything high enough you will see flaws that may not necessarily translate into a handicap for the end use as in a close comfortable shave. Not being a smart ass here but just wondering being a beginner in honing and not having any high magnification aids.

Bob

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

.... The bits of foreign matter you have pictured look like the remnants of a wire-edge, particularly the ones that are a bit shiny.
... Just to make sure that there are no burr issues, you could try commencing with some half-laps on each stone (ie rubbing the blade - gently - up and down on one side, flipping it and doing the same on the other side) before proceeding conventionally.

Originally Posted by Lemur

I was also thinking broken off wire edge.
You could try and strop it between the hones, I do it on my hand.

Originally Posted by Onimaru55

...You say you don't use much pressure but if the edge is formed long before you finish you can get a burr or wire or simply bits of the edge breaking off.

Don't be intrigued by the light. There are eight LEDs around the lense giving direct lighting, which leads to different reflections even within the viewport.

But let me go through this. Not that I got it totally wrong.

To my understanding a wire-edge is a flat burr that being so fragile that it breaks off from the blade on the back side and is then held only left and right until a mechanical impact like stropping or further honing tears it off.

I have not once seen this, but wonder how I could get there.
- I am using tape and change this often to keep the angle up high and consistent. Theoretically (and practially) I am taking off blade height, which works for me as the angle tends to rise.
- I am always working against the edge (edge forward) not spine forward.
- stropping does not change the appearance of the edge (it just shines a bit more)


Meanwhile I have lapped the stone again and found one of these before using it. You can see it is embedded.

What about mailing some pics to Naniwa and see what they think?

Bob,

Originally Posted by BobH

I may have missed it somewhere in the thread but out of curiosity at what magnification are we looking at the edge? The reason I am asking is on the basis of if you magnify anything high enough you will see flaws that may not necessarily translate into a handicap for the end use as in a close comfortable shave. Not being a smart ass here but just wondering being a beginner in honing and not having any high magnification aids.

No, I also wondered that no one asked before . Magnification is something between 220 - 250 power. For reference I have put two images with 20 and 50 power in this post .

It's not "smart assing" and You're basicly right. I am really picky here. You can do this to the max and will always find something being not perfect. You'll probably not feel one or two of these chips on an edge.

On the other hand the damage is not trivial. If You look Image #3 and #4 of my original post, You'll see that there is not much left of a good edge. And to image #3 onimaru55 said, I should do some more work on the edge as there still are sratches from 3k or 5k visible.

It's hard to see, due to the reflections, but in the 50 power image, the chips are visible.

Although almost invisible, You realize how bad they are, when You start to rebuild the bevel. I started tonight and also used the ATOMA plate (yes, almost broke my heart) with a 400 grit to get rid of at least the truely bad ones. Then changed to 800 grit. Still it took me about 1.5 hours to get an even edge again (needs to be finished yet) - not much pressure used.

Frank

Originally Posted by Lemur

What about mailing some pics to Naniwa and see what they think?

I have no contact to Naniwa directly. I have offered my vendor to directly contact Naniwa, but they did not answer to that. I googled, but found nothing useful.
The vendor has all of this and wrote they'd inform me when they get infos from Naniwa. I sent them the latest news, just before I bought the ATOMA plate.

With the first occurrance, long before I started this thread and did the thorough investigation, I had send first pics. They guessed "uneveness on the surface" and recommended the use of the nagura or rubbing the 10k grit against the 12k grit.
Next thing was, they had no idea and would accept retourn of the stone.
But I don't know, if that was info passed through from Naniwa or from their own. procuct management.