Thread: Big trouble with Naniwa Superstones 10000 and 12000

Originally Posted by Gammaray

This looks like a pressure problem to me. Go back to 1000 grit and create a chip free bevel. Then progress to the 12k using very light pressure and the results should be fine.

I can use heavy pressure on the 8k, why should I not be able to use pressure on the 10 or 12k? I know what You mean, but if there is something in the way, it's doing no good to the edge. Using light or no pressure the harm is just a little less.

The second image of the op has been taken after strokes with basicly blade weight only.

Originally Posted by Tierdaen

An additional testing approach is to use the higher grit stones at a very different angle to the heavy scratches you're getting to be sure that the scratches are coming from the higher grit stones and not simply being revealed by them.

Yes, someone else had this idea and I did that last night. I'll post the stuff in a moment.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I agree with tbs that we can only guess from our computers but even at 8k I see big scratches in your bevels. I believe you have 8oo grit scratches still present that are chipping as you thin & polish to 12k. Pressure, poor steel,faulty stones & excess honing can all be a factors but you may be able to eliminate the problem I describe with more time on 3k or even by adding a 1k to the progression. If you are pressing too hard & crumbling the steel or the stones that is also easily remedied by lightening up. Again we can't guess how much pressure you use.

Thanks, I know the 8k of the second pair was not perfect. Sometimes I go up the progression quickly in order to see what work remains on the lower levels to be done. Sometimes it's hard to see on 5k level what is still left from the 3k. Also I wanted to go up to 12k to see, if it is OK, as the problem with the scatching has happend to me so often.

Pressure should be OK, I do need far more strokes than reccommended in the Glenn's or Lynn's videos on all levels of the progression. I do need around 30 to 60 minutes. As I regularly took these pictures for the second pair, I can see that I started around a quarter to eleven and took the 8k photos at 15:30 - However checking with a loupe or microscope takes a lot of time.

Just a stupid little thought, but you said before you draw the grid on your stones with a pen. Do you mean a ball point pen? Aren't the balls metal? I use a pencil. Probably nothing but just in case, do you often draw the grid? Could metal from the pen be contaminating the hone? Like I said, just a shot in the dark...

Originally Posted by Johnus

Been following... I don't want this to sound like I'm being a smart a.., but how does the razor shave? I know there's a scratch and a chip that you need a glass to see, but if it shaves ok... It might be time to give it a rest. ...

No, You're absolutely right. We can push this to the max, but how much damage does the every day use (strop, linen, beard...) do to the edge?
On the other hand there are sharp razors that are gentle and others that tend to leave more irritation. I think (just theory) that the number and kind of these makes the tweaking between gentle and less gentle.

The first pair, with the one single "thing" is a lovely razor - used it this morning. You will not feel this single one.

The second pair (that also needs better bevel-setting) is bad.

There are people here who do not stop on the 12k level. However which level it might be, if You have one stone that leaves the edge in this kind of state evey other level after that is close to useless. If my 12k stone ruins my bevel like in image #4, there is no use in going to 15k, as my razor now not even has 1k bevel quality.

In my opinion a stone on each level should add something good to the edge. In my case ( for whatever reason ) this is not the case and I need to find out if it's my or the stone's fault or if we both have our part in it.

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Just a stupid little thought, but you said before you draw the grid on your stones with a pen. Do you mean a ball point pen? Aren't the balls metal? I use a pencil. ...

No idea is stupid, sometimes it's the obvious that we don't seen. But yes, it's a pencil (the ones that need to be sharpened every now and then), not a ball point pen.

I don't think it's the pen. I have even used a brass made key for the job. And, it works .
It's a mystery. It's improbable that both of the stones are defective, and the possible embedded particles from the sandpaper should have been removed after all this time honing.
Try polishing any soft flat piece of metal you have near you, if you have any, to test if there are deep scratches on them after a few passes. If there are, we can return to the "something is wrong with the stones". Or, try rubbing the stones with your hand under running water. Long shot but it might help.

Originally Posted by DDTech

I can use heavy pressure on the 8k, why should I not be able to use pressure on the 10 or 12k? I know what You mean, but if there is something in the way, it's doing no good to the edge. Using light or no pressure the harm is just a little less.

You can't use heavy pressure in high grits because the edge will chip randomly as it has become so fine. You may even loosen larger particles from the stone with pressure. Chips & larger stone particles in the swarf could cause the problems you see.

Your 8k pics don't look too bad but the lone chip in pic 2 could be a result of the pressure you claim you can use on the 8k. I have seen one of my hone jobs come back with chips after heavy stropping by the customer so it is easily possible to cause damage on the stones..

Do you have any razors with a known good edge ? You could simply try a few light strokes on the 12k & see if any damage occurs. That could rule out the stone or identify it as a problem.

Hmm.... now it's getting interesting.

This is what I've done yesterday.
I built a small construction that allowed me to observe the stone's surface with my microscope.

The stone consists of "stones" of varying granularity that are embedded in some kind of compound.


They basicly seem to be of the same type, but here and there others can be found.





This little one is interesting, as it "talks" to me, when it gets light from the side.



If the generally used stones have the same abrasiveness as the compound and the "others" are of different (harder) abrasiveness, these might peak out of the compound. I was able to modify the the reflection of the little fellow with a piece of plastic. So this should really be on the surface. No idea yet if it has an impact.

Another idea was, what if one of the stones is almost used up and breaks out of the compount? Bigger parts might just be carried away. I found evidence that breaking off seems to happen.







The last one is a picture of the edge. Someone asked me to have a look at the edge. It's all around like this. Flat followed by a bevel and the sidewall.

I did a good amount of observation but, especially without knowing what to look for, this is like looking for the needle in the hay. The dimension of each of the shown quadrands is around 2 x 2 mm (something like 0.08 inch).

Besides the noted, nothing peculiar.

So I started doing tests...

Interesting. I suppose you will try to lap the random pieces away & see if new ones surface ?