Thread: In praise of micro bevels for problem razors

I'm definitely not an expert on steel, geometry, pressure, or hones -- but -- since I started taping spines I get more consistent bevels with less work -- and no one despises work more than I do.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You want to taste defeat and humiliation? I'll send you my TI Damascus. After a few weeks messing with that baby you'll be thinking you can't even spell the word hone and be begging for me to take it back.

I'll take you up on that! Practice practice practice...

Edit: I didn't want this to become a tape battle or a work vs lazy thread haha. I guess this is just a non-taper confessing he has found some good use for tape lately, and trying to spread the word. Why don't I use tape (usually)? I don't know... My first razors weren't taped, and I didn't feel like having to keep track of things, so I just went without...even after I started restoring old guys with major wear. I just hoped that spine wear would work with the shrinking the blade width to maintain the original edge geometry. It's worked so far. I've just had to put in more...well...work.

I've always assumed I'd have to use tape one day on those restore projects that have extreme hone wear. Funny enough, These two razors both seem to be NOS (the C. Myers definitely was; the Ontario didn't show a single sign of ever touching the hones). No pitting whatsoever; the steel doesn't even show the slightest patina or spotting. But hours and hours on the Chosera 1k wasn't yielding bevels that I loved. They would shave arm hair, but with just a tad more pressure than I liked. So screw it, micro bevel on the finisher and VOILA! Excellent shavers!

Some say pastes can be a crutch for poor honing. I see micro bevels as a crutch for people who have a bevel 99% complete, but don't wan't to put in another 6 hours on the 1k for that last 1%. Still, some swear by micro bevels. For now, I'll see how these edges hold, but I'm very happy with the results thus far.

Thanks for the reminder. I have had tape save me a couple times.
Although, I need to stay vigilant on the water. The last razor took me a while to get though (maybe hour or two?) and water must have stayed near the tape line. I have now have some nice stains right where the tape was

I'm a tape it man through and through, long live the small even bevel.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Since you say the edge is holding after you apply the tape then that leads the answer to Geometry, however that might not be the entire answer..

If you have exceptional steel it can perhaps hold the edge at a lower angle it would knida depend on what the spine looks like IMO measure the actual angle so you have an idea of what is going on.. If you come up with something on the low side of 15° then you have a pretty good idea of the issue...

As you can see from my answer, often you have to look at the entire situation to narrow down the problem...

Steel
Angle
Hone
Pressure

The first razor that I had trouble with was a brand new Hart Steel. Being brand new, I'd like to rule out the angle since the spine was brand new and had no wear. I'd also like to think that it was not the steel since it was brand new. But out of the box the edge was, meh. It shaved but it didn't have the level of sharpness I had come to expect from a professionally sharpened blade. So I decided to give it a go myself. I initially used one layer of tape as that is what Hart states they use during the honing process. I tried touching up first on the 8k. No real improvement. So I went to 1k assuming that perhaps the bevel was not great to begin with. I was getting a bevel but it never seemed as good as other razors I had honed to that point. I thought maybe the heavy grind had something to do with it. I went along to 4k, and 8k and the edge never seemed to be any better than when I first got it. Two layers went on (1, 4, 8 and 12k). A little better but after a few shaves, its pulling again. Finally, three layers (1,4, 8, and 12K). Now its popping hairs on my arm instead of pushing them over. Its shaves without pulling. I may have given it a couple too many passes on the 12k as it was a tad harsh but the second shave seemed to see some of that disappear. Third shave and its still seems to be going well. I use the Hart as an example since I should be able to rule out 1/2 of the concerns (angle and steel) since its brand new when I'm doing this. That leaves the hone and the person honing it. BUT, I am a little perplexed because it arrived with a sub par edge to begin with and I was not able to push beyond that until the third layer of tape went on. Now, it should be obvious that I'm no expert or I'd be answering these questions rather than asking them. So maybe pressure was an issue? But after reading the thread about hitting the wall and climbing over, the suggestion to add (or remove) a layer and/or going up or down a grit seemed to shake the problem loose. So for that I'm happy but I'm not really sure what is/was happening where the steel hits the stone. I'll spend some time with the link you added and see where it takes me with the other razor in question (PJM C-MON Special).

Wouldnt a dmt be able to tame that bad boy and establish a flat prebevel before the hones? I know sometimes its more complicated than that though. But having never worked on a razor such as the one your talking about, i really have no clue.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

You want to taste defeat and humiliation? I'll send you my TI Damascus. After a few weeks messing with that baby you'll be thinking you can't even spell the word hone and be begging for me to take it back.

I will take that bet. How long do I get to keep it if I succeed? I look forward to shaving with such a fine blade!

Originally Posted by 10Pups

Thank you for confirming my decision to use tape all the time :<0) I think it cuts down on a lot of

? Using tape all the time wouldn't create a micro-bevel; it would create a normal bevel with a slightly larger included angle. Do you mean you always finish off with tape?

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I use the Hart as an example since I should be able to rule out 1/2 of the concerns (angle and steel) since its brand new when I'm doing this. That leaves the hone and the person honing it. BUT, I am a little perplexed because it arrived with a sub par edge to begin with and I was not able to push beyond that until the third layer of tape went on. Now, it should be obvious that I'm no expert or I'd be answering these questions rather than asking them. So maybe pressure was an issue? But after reading the thread about hitting the wall and climbing over, the suggestion to add (or remove) a layer and/or going up or down a grit seemed to shake the problem loose. So for that I'm happy but I'm not really sure what is/was happening where the steel hits the stone. I'll spend some time with the link you added and see where it takes me with the other razor in question (PJM C-MON Special).

Search "Hart Razor Bevel" angle on here while you are at it

See assumptions can mess with you, as you are going to learn from the search early Hart razors had a bevel angle that was more in the 13 degree range and many had an issue with holding an edge.. This was improved on as production moved forward, I have not measured a Hart in a couple of years, but again if I were you I would simply measure the angle to see where it is really at to start then go from there..

Originally Posted by Magpie

I will take that bet. How long do I get to keep it if I succeed? I look forward to shaving with such a fine blade!

That particular razor is famous for it's hard steel and the difficulty in getting it shave ready (they were never shave ready when delivered new). Though they last a very long time once honed up even touchups are a major pain. Send me copy of your honemeister certificate level 5 and I'll send the razor your way.