Can't get a sharp edge off Shapton 8K and 16K

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

According to the razor, yes, overhoning on 8K is possible...I had a lot of problems with this when learning to hone as I was just trying too hard.

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This has applied to me quite a few times: trying too hard. Perhaps the pyramid approach prevents this as well. Maybe tonight I'll do a late night pyramid on a different razor than the one I used this morning.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Im thinking the bevel is not set as was said. I would dull on glass and reset the bevel. Strop and test shave after the 1k. Just the cheeks and see where it is. If it cuts plenty then continue to your next grit. JMHO. I have never come across an edge that crashed at a high grit. Im not saying theres no such animal, but so far no. (400 + blades honed)

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I read the 1K shave thread a while ago and while I'm loath to try a 1K shave, I'll give it a go soon. I do get sticky edges off the 1K, but with the toughness of my beard, I'm not looking forward to it.


Another question: I followed Lynn's routine of setting the bevel at 1K, doing pressure and no-pressure circles on the 4K to sharpen. If the bevel is set well on the 1K, could I go to the 4K without pressure? Perhaps I am overdoing the 4K, if that is possible.

You can overdo anything. I think the 1k shave will reveal alot. Smoothness problem s are different than sharpness problems. The 1k shave you are looking for cutting power, not smooth. If it cuts it all off for a few swipes on the cheek you are good imo. Extra pyramid on the 4k helped you so it seems the bevel is being corrected there.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

You can overdo anything.

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Including the 1K? I spend a lot of time there to get a uniform, shiny bevel and sticky edge. If the 1K can be overdone, that could explain why I think the bevel is there, while it actually is not.

I am new to all this, and myself I am concerned about over honing.
How does one fix an over-honed edge?
I ground a chip out of my blade with a barbers hone - and I may be suffering this.

Yes you can overhone on the 1k. This could give you a bur or wire edge. I go by visual. Then when it looks like its set, I tnt or arm hair test or test shave. So visual and one of the other tests.

Good to know. I've never noticed a burr or wire edge off the 1K. I'll use the TNT and AHT alongside the TPT to see if I can get a better idea of the progress on the 1K. And I do use visual, both with and without a loop, but mostly to see if I covered the entire bevel.

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Originally Posted by Laurens

So here is what I do (and some additional notes and questions):
- I spend quite some time on the 1K to set a nice bevel. Circles, X strokes, pressure, finishing without pressure, until the edge is already very shiny and even. Starts to get sticky with the TPT, shaves arm hair well, but I don't get feedback/suction from the hone. Sounds ok to here. Should I get feedback/suction on the 1K? How does suction or feedback make the razor shave better ? Rhetorical question. It doesn't :)
- About as much time for the 4K, basically the same thing. Starting to feel some feedback, but not much. Backward and forward stroke don't feel the same in terms of suction. I think here is where you maybe doing too much then trying to fix it on 8k by forcing the issue with pressure. This is especially a point where pressure does not belong. If you use magnification even at 1k you will see the edge start to shine up well below the shoulder of the bevel using light strokes. This is no paradox as you are simply thinning the side of the blade when using pressure & not honing the edge.
- No pressure strokes on the 8K, getting very little feedback. The only way I can stick the razor to the hone is by doing the same as 1K/4K: circles and x strokes with pressure, finishing without pressure. That way, the razor really sticks to the hone. Does it shave well when you do this ? :shrug:
- BUT, moving on to the 16K, again, I get no feedback from the hone. You could try superglue to stick the razor to the stone. :p Sorry for the sarcasm :) but I just don't see the point in trying to achieve some sensation on the stone when cutting hair is your goal.

- I keep track of my progress with the HHT. It climbs up till where I use pressure on the 8K. When I finish without pressure, the HHT result drops a little. Moving on to the 16K does not improve the HHT. Stropping does a lot. (I know all about the controversy of the HHT) I think this is a clue. Stropping should help but if it is required during the shave it can be a sign of a not so sturdy edge. Do you notice performance worsening near the end of the shave ?
- I tried lather on the 8K a few times with good result, but I'm not sure if it's good for the hone. Hence, I want to learn to use just water. I would stick to water. Shaptons are sensitive to chemicals.


The shave:
I have a tough beard, but Feathers cut right through with minimal resistance. I want the same or close from my straight razors. However, after my honing and stropping routine, I get a little tug WTG and a bit too much tug ATG, forcing me to perform scything and slicing passes and still not getting the wonderful results I get with a Feather blade (or an Astra, for that matter). You need to buy a razor that can take that kind of edge but also hold it or you will be rehoning as frequently as you replace a Feather. Needless to say a full hollow will help achieve that with less work than a wedge.


The questions:
- How sharp, in terms of resistance while shaving and/or in comparison to DE blades, should a razor coming off the 8K/16K be? Does it get close to Feather sharpness?
Depends on the razor. Some yes some no. Some for only a pass or 2. :)
- What am I doing wrong? I believe you are wrecking the edge at 4k. Pressure is of no use after the 1k. I don't know what you are trying to achieve by feeling suction or whatever feedback you seek but essentially if the razor is shaving armchair well at 1k it should only get better as you go, unless the steel will not take a good edge for some reason.
- The Feather shaves tells me my shaving technique and beard prep are good, or is that presumptuous? Not so much but I imagine the technique is different

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I would really try a less vigorous approach with an occasional light strop for 2 or 3 strokes when you are ready to test a stage of honing or if sharpness seems to drop.. Sometimes you do"apparently" lose sharpness but the most minimal of stropping can return it. Imagine what pressure on a stone might do to that edge.
Also if at some point you create a burr, it can happen with unevenly sharp edges, the next stone will always remove it with light strokes.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I would really try a less vigorous approach with an occasional light strop for 2 or 3 strokes when you are ready to test a stage of honing or if sharpness seems to drop.. Sometimes you do"apparently" lose sharpness but the most minimal of stropping can return it. Imagine what pressure on a stone might do to that edge.
Also if at some point you create a burr, it can happen with unevenly sharp edges, the next stone will always remove it with light strokes.

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Thank you, Oz, I will go easier on the 4K and try the light stropping between hones. I definitely have met the apparent sharpness loss, which I always attributed to the microserrations becoming smoother. I got the pressurised circles from Lynn's video, but I'll take them out.

As for the feedback, I keep reading and hearing that Shaptons "tell" you when you're done at a certain stage. It sounds like a perfect way of knowing how you're doing: the stone tells you when it has done its job. I may however, as you point out, have given it too much credit, disregarding all else.

I have never honed on superglue, and you contradict yourself by saying Shaptons are sensitive to chemicals :hmmm:

Recently, I tried stropping between two passes, and I couldn't tell a difference. I think at least that much is a good sign, the edge is not too fragile.


Again, thank you, all of you guys! You really keep me going when things get frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Laurens

Thank you, Oz, I will go easier on the 4K and try the light stropping between hones. I definitely have met the apparent sharpness loss, which I always attributed to the microserrations becoming smoother. I got the pressurised circles from Lynn's video, but I'll take them out.
S'ok Laurens. We sometimes have to postulate with honing as to what is happening but generally things have to get sharper as we go. Pressure is a very useful tool especially at bevel set. Don't necessarily stop using it. How much pressure tho is related to the razor at hand. Videos are great but if you treat a wedge & a singing razor the same way you may get different results.. Try to glean the underlying principles demonstrated rather than just use a formula. Even the famous pyramid method has different starting points.

As for the feedback, I keep reading and hearing that Shaptons "tell" you when you're done at a certain stage. It sounds like a perfect way of knowing how you're doing: the stone tells you when it has done its job. I may however, as you point out, have given it too much credit, disregarding all else. Or you were forcing the sensations you seek ? Maybe ? You may be surprised that at a reduced pressure you can feel more.

I have never honed on superglue, and you contradict yourself by saying Shaptons are sensitive to chemicals :hmmm: This is where my theory falls to the ground in flames.:)

Recently, I tried stropping between two passes, and I couldn't tell a difference. I think at least that much is a good sign, the edge is not too fragile.


Again, thank you, all of you guys! You really keep me going when things get frustrating.

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Just let the stones do the work once the bevel is set. Hang in there & keep us posted .

Have you lapped your stones since you used shaving cream on them? If not, I would recommend it. Shapton GS's shouldn't bead water. Some shaving creams will makes stones bead water. Honing isn't something you will get overnight, you will get it!