Todays words of wisdom on honing...

...more specifically on bevel setting.

I was having a conversation with a fine friend and honing mentor who said to me, (I am paraphrasing)...

When you do the arm hair test to determine if the bevel is truly set, don't do it with the intent to get the razor to pass, do it with the intent to force the razor to fail. If it passes in spite of your attempts to force it to fail, you're ready to move on. If you force it to pass, you may be kidding yourself into believing it's ready, when in fact, you're just scraping away arm hair.

Not sure if any of you can relate to this philosophically. Subtle, but concise. It was another light bulb going off for me (and it helps me remember it if I write it...).

I like your approach, I will try it on my next honing session

Sounds good, but I'm not quite sure how you would force it to fail?

Regards,
Neil

I usually target individual hairs off the back of my hand, and if they easily pop hairs from from the toe to the heel of a 1K stone then I will move up the progression without any further tests until i come off the cordovan, then i fully expect that razor to walk through the HHT.

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Sounds good, but I'm not quite sure how you would force it to fail?

Regards,
Neil

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I think of it this way... (and I'll bet many new honers do the same in their exuberance to get to the more fun stones). I used to go to the back of my hand, arm or wrist and take a swipe at the hairs. I was hoping to see it clear a patch. Any patch. Fell some hairs and I would give it a positive on the AHT. That, in my mind is forcing it to pass. Getting that sort of global 'it cut some hairs' result can easily give you a false pass as well as false security that you are okay, and the bevel is set across the entire edge. Key word being ENTIRE.

Forcing it to fail is to take a small section of the edge, maybe 1/4", and target one hair, as Jamie says. If that section cuts hair, move to another small section and a new hair and so on down the blade, in hopes that you find that section that DOESN'T cut. Your goal in forcing it to fail is identify any spots that don't easily cut a single hair. Find a spot tht doesn't cut and the blade fails the AHT.

That's a great way to test the entire edge. I use the tnt. You can feel it digging in when its set. If you have an partial unset bevel somewhere, you will feel it.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

That's a great way to test the entire edge. I use the tnt. You can feel it digging in when its set. If you have an partial unset bevel somewhere, you will feel it.

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I am using that as well Bill. I am trying not to rely on any one test as you can get a false positive. If you're passing more than one test, you limit your chances of moving ahead too soon. AHT, TNT & Sharpie.. pass all three and odds are with you.

When in doubt,send it out:)

This is truism of pretty much all testing whether it be honing tests, stress tests, statistical hypothesis tests, whatever. Although it seems to have gone by the wayside in University exams, where it seems any excuse to pass is now the norm, but I digress....

Maybe it's because of my background, but I don't think of these things as "tests" - there's a connotation that tests need to be passed, though that was certainly not their original purpose or intent - I think of them as "models". Models like model trains - a stylised and usually scaled down representation of the real thing.

A good model allows you to explore, in relative comfort and safety, the various aspects of what it is you are interested in. Even a bad model can be useful as long as you are aware that it is a bad model and why it is bad (which is why we all go off when a HHT thread starts up, for example).

Once you understand the model and its limitations you can develop tests based upon that model. Tests are just a standardised mechanism that allow you to systematically (or not) explore the model, and are generally highly dependent on the model and the assumptions that went into creating it.

So with honing and arm hair tests, what I bet a lot of people forget about is the underlying model - that being that arm hair can adequately approximate facial hair for the purposes of edge assessment. Not that it matters all that much, since the empirical evidence for most people says the model is adequate for its intended purpose, but I do think it is always good to be aware anyway.

But anyway, I think the advice is useful and good. Tests are meant to be failed as well as passed, that's their purpose. And understanding the model on which they are based helps you understand what that fail or pass means.

James.

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Sounds good, but I'm not quite sure how you would force it to fail?

Regards,
Neil

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You keep trying sections of the blade on small patches of hair. If you can make the blade go over a hair without cutting it then the bevel fails. If you can't then the bevel passes.

It's more of a mindset. The test is the same each time. The passing result doesn't change. But if you start out looking for a failing result, even trying to achieve one, then you are less likely to get a false positive. A false positive always leads to frustration because you go up in grit too soon.

Michael

Being new at honing I just hold the razor about an inch above the arm hair, do a sweep from heel to toe and shout FAIL! Then I go back to setting bevel and using the loupe under my best reading light until I get there.

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Sounds good, but I'm not quite sure how you would force it to fail?

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by MikekiM

I think of it this way... (and I'll bet many new honers do the same in their exuberance to get to the more fun stones). I used to go to the back of my hand, arm or wrist and take a swipe at the hairs. I was hoping to see it clear a patch. Any patch. Fell some hairs and I would give it a positive on the AHT. That, in my mind is forcing it to pass. Getting that sort of global 'it cut some hairs' result can easily give you a false pass as well as false security that you are okay, and the bevel is set across the entire edge. Key word being ENTIRE.

Forcing it to fail is to take a small section of the edge, maybe 1/4", and target one hair, as Jamie says. If that section cuts hair, move to another small section and a new hair and so on down the blade, in hopes that you find that section that DOESN'T cut. Your goal in forcing it to fail is identify any spots that don't easily cut a single hair. Find a spot tht doesn't cut and the blade fails the AHT.

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Well, that just sounds like an odd way of expressing it to me! :)

Your 'forcing it to fail' is simply my 'seeing if its ready to progress' if it ain'r ready, it ain't ready, simple. If you don't test the entire edge as you progress from hone to hone, then you need to re-learn the basics, in my oplnion.

Regards,
Neil

Try to be aware of the different feels, sounds etc when you are honing. These are clues that will help you as you progress in your learning. Not to say they are as good as tests are, but they signal when a blade is getting close. You eye being trained to recognize when the scratch patterns are uniformly covering the bevel is helpful. Although all of these require verification. The eye is part of it, the feedback, tnt, tpt, aht etc. In the beginning you are flying blind so to speak, after a while these subtle sensations become more noticed.

Forgive me Michael (mjsorkin) but that sounds like even more mumbo-jumbo.

TPT, TNT, HHT and armhair tests are just ways to check your progress. Attaching any more meaning than that to them isn't useful.

Call it a 'mindset' if you like, but its the kind of mindset that sees a bottle as half empty rather than half full. In other words the bottles contents are the same, no matter what your 'mindset' is.

Same with a razor. If the bevel is not formed, for instance, its not formed. The only way to tell if it is fully formed is fully inspecting it, with one or preferably more methods. Thats sound, methodical practice, it does't need a fancier name.

Maybe it helps people who cant hone, I cant say, but I followed the practical methods found here and elsewhere and they work perfectly well without adding fancy terms or inferring anything esoteric.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Sounds good, but I'm not quite sure how you would force it to fail?

Regards,
Neil

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+1
it either shaves arm hair or it does not.

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

You keep trying sections of the blade on small patches of hair. If you can make the blade go over a hair without cutting it then the bevel fails. If you can't then the bevel passes.

It's more of a mindset. The test is the same each time. The passing result doesn't change. But if you start out looking for a failing result, even trying to achieve one, then you are less likely to get a false positive. A false positive always leads to frustration because you go up in grit too soon.

Michael

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You take a swipe and if there is problem along the edge some hairs will not get cut clean, then you go back to the 1k till the blade shaves hair off evenly clean.
Same result as if trying single hair every 1/4" or so, only it is easier to do and less messing around.
Say you have to hone 5 razors at a sitting from bevel to strop. The "making it fail" method could take hours to complete, taking into account the time it can take to set bevel in the first place.
I know this can be subjective but with good optics I can tell when the bevel is set and do not have to do any hair cutting to know when to move. That comes with a lot of experience though.

I think all that's being said is essentially: don't move on until the entire bevel is able to easily cut arm hair.
This "mindset" is simply a means of adding emphasis to "entire" and "easily" in the sentence above.

I don't think the intent is to try and turn it into the zen of honing or anything like that. It's just a way of explaining a passing result on an arm hair test to someone who may, in their excitement, be inclined to ignore a failing result.

At least, that's how I understand what's being said above.

Yeah I get the mindset thing. Before we set up any test at work, we (try) to set very clear criteria to evaluate the results. Like what filter can you pass the results through? What sort of averaging is allowed and can you throw out outliers?
This is done because two different groups, based on their vested interest, can come up with quite different conclusions. I think the OP was simply stating if you try to see the glass half empty you won't let what you perceive as a pass claim victory.
Otherwise, you'll give yourself excuses like "well I probably had it at the wrong angle" or "that hair was especially thin" etc.
The rest of you are right in that it's probably most applicable to us novice honers.
Data without proper evaluation criteria is sometimes worse than no test at all.

JMO

Everytime I say this people that have a working AHT look with disbelief :)

Not everyone can pass an AHT

In fact sitting around the table at a meet there is usually at least one that can't, same with the other tests..

There are multiple tests for a positive bevel set make sure you have one (or more) that work every single time, that you have an absolute Pass / Fail system that works for you.

If you are a beginner and you read "I waft the arm hair and I know my bevel is right when it cuts easily 1/2 inch above my arm" that is a great test for that person and it is THEIR absolute Pass / Fail system.. But many people could wear a razor through to the spine trying to achieve the same level of "Sharpness" (1).. There are variables involved that change from person to person much like the HHT all tests are somewhat subjective, and you are actually the subject :)


That is each new honers first task to learn, they have to interpret the "Sharp Tests" to their unique situation..

Try them all until you learn which ones work for you then tweak them so that they are infallible for you
A 5 pack of DE blades from Walmart etc: can be an invaluable teaching tool for this...

Remember all we can tell you is what works for us and how it works but always realize that is might not work the same way for you...



(1) I just realized that my quotes might not be enough here so I came back to this,, The actual sharpness of the blade (Micron size) may not any different between a person wafting the hair and a person that can't pass the test.. In fact I have seen both happen with the same razor at the same table, I learned quite a bit going to the meets and teaching.. All these tests are quite subjective,

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Everytime I say this people that have a working AHT look with disbelief :)

Not everyone can pass an AHT

In fact sitting around the table at a meet there is usually at least one that can't, same with the other tests..

There are multiple tests for a positive bevel set make sure you have one (or more) that work every single time, that you have an absolute Pass / Fail system that works for you.

If you are a beginner and you read "I waft the arm hair and I know my bevel is right when it cuts easily 1/2 inch above my arm" that is a great test for that person and it is THEIR absolute Pass / Fail system.. But many people could wear a razor through to the spine trying to achieve the same level of "Sharpness" (1).. There are variables involved that change from person to person much like the HHT all tests are somewhat subjective, and you are actually the subject :)


That is each new honers first task to learn, they have to interpret the "Sharp Tests" to their unique situation..

Try them all until you learn which ones work for you then tweak them so that they are infallible for you
A 5 pack of DE blades from Walmart etc: can be an invaluable teaching tool for this...

Remember all we can tell you is what works for us and how it works but always realize that is might not work the same way for you...



(1) I just realized that my quotes might not be enough here so I came back to this,, The actual sharpness of the blade (Micron size) may not any different between a person wafting the hair and a person that can't pass the test.. In fact I have seen both happen with the same razor at the same table, I learned quite a bit going to the meets and teaching.. All these tests are quite subjective,

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Any noobs should read this post several times or as many times as is necessary to fully understand it. It is spot on.

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Well, that just sounds like an odd way of expressing it to me! :)

Your 'forcing it to fail' is simply my 'seeing if its ready to progress' if it ain'r ready, it ain't ready, simple. If you don't test the entire edge as you progress from hone to hone, then you need to re-learn the basics, in my oplnion.

Regards,
Neil

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Well, call it 'odd' if you wish. I guess, being as new to this as I am, I don't have your gift of being able to tell, intuitively, or through gift of mastery, if it is or ain't ready. It helps me to see it this way. You're welcome to accept or dismiss it as you see best, for you.

My preference is to learn to hone only on the natural stones and things aren't so black and white..

Having said that, your method seems way too 'loose' for me. Clearly, I lack your intuition.

Great conversation.
I love it!
The greater the variety of descriptions the better.
I get this and I appreciate it for what it's worth.

Okay, I'd like to clarify things here. I gave this advice one on one to a friend that I am teaching to hone.

I had him over to my house and set bevels on three of his razors. I allowed him to test each one before moving on. We used thumb pad, arm hair and looked through two different loupes. All of my bevels were good and they all cut his and my arm hair. They all passed the tpt and looked good in the loupe.

Later over the phone I gave some more advice about a specific bevel that he was working on. This is the advice that he shared in the op.

I'd like to point out that this was specific tailored advice for a real world problem that he was having. I'd also like to point out that it was a great success. My advice deepened his understanding of how a bevel should feel and he was moved enough to post here.

And what did he get for it? "wierd", "Mumbo jumbo". Posts saying that it would take to long for production honing. Well that's just your opinion. I'm the one meeting with the guy, and trying to explain stuff in a way that he will understand.

As for me, I'm not a pro honer but I've spent many hours learning how to do every possible test on a bevel to make sure it's set. So yes I always do more than one test to check if a bevel is set. As I always say, one test can fool you. It's better to do two or three tests.

Michael

Thanks Michael...

I am continuing to hold your words tightly. By my nature, I learn best by watching and doing, not by guessing. And sadly, not through years of personal experience. Your words gave me a clearer vision of what I was looking for in the tests.. It works for me.

Most of what I have come across prior had been far too nebulous for my learning style.