Thread: Theory

Originally Posted by earcutter

I really don't know Bob. You might be right!! As a rule I hang out here - but when no one could help when I was looking for advice on sharpening my kitchen knives with Arks, I started to scour the knife forums and noted this obsession on angle!!

My comment was meant solely to relate to straight razors, of knives I know virtually nothing. After reading Birnardo's posts in this thread I can see where it may make a difference in knives. So there is yet another dissimilarity between honing knives and straights. The closer you look the more differences there are proving they are a related task but not the same task.

Bob

The extreme example is a microtome. is it a razor or a knife? Either way it's dead sharp.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The extreme example is a microtome. is it a razor or a knife? Either way it's dead sharp.

Ahhhhhh!!! Lol!

All I know is I can't pull it out of my pocket and kill a zombie with it, or shave with it, so its useless to me lol!! But yeah cool!! Going to look into it and see how they work. If I recall, they had glass and metal blades! Been a while lol!

I suspect they are two different worlds with two different purposes to achieve different goals.

Much like a saw where the set of the teeth can steer the blade/cut the same would/could occur with a knife and bevels. If you want a straight cut, the bevels should be even like the sides of a boat hull, otherwise you are fighting the cut/knife and the result is the finish on the cut e.g. (piece of tuna). If you’re chopping celery it does not matter except you are fighting the cut using more energy that needed like steering an asymmetrical boat hull.

But we are not cutting tuna and no one is looking at the cut hair and admiring or deriding the look of the cut. So for razors… it does not matter. Just the edge matters.

Which is why as has been said many, many times… honing/sharpening knives is nothing like honing razors.

Nice exercise though.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Which is why as has been said many, many times… honing/sharpening knives is nothing like honing razors.

Nice exercise though.

I agree with just about everything in your post but ^^ that. I mean I kind of do as well, in that they aren't the same, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are "nothing" alike. I think there is a ton of overlap. Moreover I think the way we go about it is identical. Matter a fact - you could say the actual process of honing a razor is easier in that you don't need to maintain an angle - you simply rest the spine on the stone too - way easy!!

I mean lets face it, knife or razor, we are rubbing steal on a rock (real or fake), in order to ultimately cut something.

Its the details that differ. Your face is supper sensitive. That cow you are cutting up is dead and couldn't care less if the slice is harsh. It's only in the final details and the "polishing" that I really see the difference. Otherwise I would say they are very similar.

That's my take today anyway - I reserve the right to change my mind later lol.

I have had a few razors that I brought back from dead, meaning I had to rebuild and reset the bevel. Now I stay even through all this with strokes but what about pressure ? Going on to finish the progression and test shave 1 side seems to cut better than the other. After messing with it (too many times) I go back and start from bevel again and not being able to see the difference but guessing which side maybe shorter I give that side a few more stokes trying to see if that's it. I am still not sure I could say " okay if the show side out ,shaves better, than you need to hone the other side to even it" I do believe this is the case though if they are too far apart. The farther apart the more I notice. Either that or I am over thinking my hone job while shaving and in that case forget what I just said :<0) No scientific proof just my observation of what I do and feel.

Originally Posted by earcutter

... That cow you are cutting up is dead and couldn't care less if the slice is harsh...

ah but the Japanese are extremely concerned with the damage that the cutting does and the changes in appearance and flavor of the fish. That's why they hone cutlery to extremely polished edges, with the very rocks we tend to only use for razors.

But that's mostly the Chefs and connoisseurs, probably lots and lots of "meh sharp" blades in kitchens all over the Island.

but the serious guys are all like this:




He gives good hints to selecting knife, paraphrased: Go to best place, pay most money.

Anyway, i'm not arguing anything, just commenting on the "assumptions" that one must put in place when trying to compare/contrast this and that.

You can make bevels on a knife completely asymmetrical and that will not affect the cutting performance of the knife as long as the bevels are properly done.
I used to use a 90/10 bevel with zero issues. Really the purpose of the asymmetry is to make the geometry as thin as possible to reduce resistance when cutting food. Of course with proper ground knife that would be not necessary. I went trough quite a few knife brands (Japanese because they make the best cutlery you can get), till I find a few makers that can actually produce proper geometry.

I am not sure if any of that matters to razors, all that matters is the angle of attack of the blade to the hairs, and that can be adjusted, unlike when cutting food where once in the produce there is no room to adjust anymore.

Originally Posted by earcutter

I agree with just about everything in your post but ^^ that. I mean I kind of do as well, in that they aren't the same, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are "nothing" alike. I think there is a ton of overlap. Moreover I think the way we go about it is identical. Matter a fact - you could say the actual process of honing a razor is easier in that you don't need to maintain an angle - you simply rest the spine on the stone too - way easy!!

I mean lets face it, knife or razor, we are rubbing steal on a rock (real or fake), in order to ultimately cut something.

Its the details that differ. Your face is supper sensitive. That cow you are cutting up is dead and couldn't care less if the slice is harsh. It's only in the final details and the "polishing" that I really see the difference. Otherwise I would say they are very similar.

That's my take today anyway - I reserve the right to change my mind later lol.

Knives are harder to sharpen than razors if you care of proper edge.
One has to maintain angle, which is not easy because the bevels must be convexed for proper cutting and strength. Also when going up the grits, the pressure must decrease till it is almost superficial. When all that is done correctly one can shave with a proper kitchen knife just like with razor. Proper kitchen knives are Japanese made (not Shun and the likes mass produces VG-10 blades), from quality carbon steel with high hardness.

Originally Posted by WadePatton

ah but the Japanese are extremely concerned with the damage that the cutting does and the changes in appearance and flavor of the fish. That's why they hone cutlery to extremely polished edges, with the very rocks we tend to only use for razors.

But that's mostly the Chefs and connoisseurs, probably lots and lots of "meh sharp" blades in kitchens all over the Island.

but the serious guys are all like this:




He gives good hints to selecting knife, paraphrased: Go to best place, pay most money.

Anyway, i'm not arguing anything, just commenting on the "assumptions" that one must put in place when trying to compare/contrast this and that.

I actually thought you were going to bring up a different topic - that of long clean cuts vs the chopping action so many of us use.

A little background: back in the day, I was in the last certified meat cutting collage class there was in the Provence of Ontario. I can literally inspect meat for the Canadian government. Or well, I could. After that, I apprenticed under an Austrian Master Butcher until I descovered I enjoyed B to B sales more than cutting lol!

Anyway, what you learn very quickly is that its better to use long flowing cuts that may or may not leave meat on the bone than a bunch of more "accurate" small cuts. This is especially true for those cutting sushi.

Hell! We fired guys who would what we called choppers, or guys who played with the meat.

Why?

Every cut is a source of bacteria growth. The more cuts, the faster the food will rot. Just think of ground round vs a steak. Ground round is a meka for bacteria and the reason you best only buy tar tar from a person you trust.

Hence a long straight cut can change the taste. Because a long flowing cut will create less damage. Less area for bacteria. More importantly to us, so will a sharp knife vs a dull knife. Tearing is no where as clean a cut as one done with a sharp blade.

Now for the vast majority of us reading this, the topic is moot. But on an industry level!

Were it feasible, a water knife attached to a computer with xray capabilities would save the cutting plant millions. But the technology is either not there yet, or still so expensive that it's still cheaper to hire people. But its coming - one day.

OK... Well that was off topic! But that's where I went lol!