Thread: Am I missing something !

I was at work today making up patch leads which is a tedious job so my mind started to wander and I got to thinking about finishing hones, I was weighing up the pros and cons of a guyoko 20k or an equivalent natural. I came to the conclusion that I can't justify the cost of a natural stone that fine (if indeed I could actually find one) and settled for the guyoko which, by all accounts is one hell of a stone.

The cunundorum I have though is when I read things like "I finish on my [insert expensive natural stone here] then do 20 strokes on a pasted strop". Now to me that sort of defeats the point of spending allot of money on an expensive natural hone as the actual finished edge is from the paste and not the hone ! If you are going to finish with pastes are you not better to hone with cheaper synthetic stones.

I am sure I'm missing the point here, but the only thing I can think is that people like to get the to the point of finishing on the naturals (ie the feel). However the final edge isn't down to the stone.

Please help me here its driving me mad thinking about it

I finish,touch up on a 12 Shapton,the edge is perfectally shave ready,Is just to crisp for me.
5 on crox mellows the edge,is more to my liking.

The actual finished edge is from the stone. The paste is just smoothing it out for a nicer shave, in my experience. Have a look under magnification after any finisher, then paste laps.

As far as the SG20K and justifying the cost, I had the same opinion too until I started reading more (and more) about naturals and their costs. I don't have one yet, as I went another route with BHs that I believe to be more cost effective. I still have it on my list. The BHs are doing a bang up job quite a bit beyond my 12K level.

Hope that sorts it out for you.

I understand if the razor is used straight after the hone (just plain stropping after ofc), it is the stropping with pastes after the stone I can't quite get my head around. In my mind its then the edge that comes off the pasted strop that they like and not the edge off the hone as that edge no longer exists but has been replaced by the pasted strop edge. I am not sure if I'm making it very clear what I'm thinking but it makes sense in my head before I type it here hehe

I would venture to say that there are people out there that DO have that opinion - that if you finish with a paste/spray, the stone you finished on has a smaller impact on the final edge.
My journey so far has been to create an edge off the stone that rivals that of using a paste, but I ask 1) is that really possible, and 2) why do I care?

If pastes really are an abrasive with a finer grit level, then it makes sense that it's going to improve the edge. And if it does this, why shouldn't I use it? The only reason I don't use it is to feel the different edges off different hones in the event that a better finish before the paste will make the post-paste edge that much better, in the same way getting a good edge off 8k will set you up for an even better edge off the 12k.
So far I have only achieved a non-paste edge that rivaled a pasted edge 1 time, off my coticule.

In every case that I have received an edge from someone, either hobbyist or pro, a few laps on cBN has improved the feel of the edge for me.
As always ymmv. I have refrained from speaking my opinion on this because I'm a novice, but it has been my experience so far.

a lot of people prize the gokumyo (updated name:I believe this is stone you talking about) 20k, sham who is particularly passionate about his stones thinks this is only acceptable finisher when it comes to synthetics, however he does not use pastes. Personally I think you should get something cheaper first and really get your honing up to scratch before spending so much on a stone. AJ on ebay sells all kind of good stones for good prizes like vintage Escher's and Thüringen's for around 45.00-60.00 and as you are in UK the postage is acceptable, you really cant go wrong with those hones. If you want to try something even cheaper try his slate hones especially purple and green ones. read about the on forums people really enjoy them.
When it comes to pastes, if you are using chromium, cerium, tin oxides they are all abrasives which are harder than the steel used in razor, thus they slowly remove steel thus the edge is kind of cross between stone and paste, it also depends how many strokes you do on paste and which paste you are using. Personally I think cheaper natural finisher plus paste will give you as smoth shave as gokumyo 20k, but gokumyo 20k plus pastes will give you even sharper edge. Another problem now is the harshness of the edge and that depends on the razor and of course your skin, the edge you might get will be extremely sharp to sharp for your face. Before buying the stone send it to someone with the guyoko 20k to get it sharpened and decide if you are enjoying the edge if not then try something else, that's the beauty of straight razor some people like shaves of Norton 8k and some need CBN 0.1 micron spray. Hope I actualy make sense and didn't blap for to long
Regrds Rafal

Originally Posted by mike1011

I was at work today making up patch leads which is a tedious job so my mind started to wander and I got to thinking about finishing hones, I was weighing up the pros and cons of a guyoko 20k or an equivalent natural. I came to the conclusion that I can't justify the cost of a natural stone that fine (if indeed I could actually find one) and settled for the guyoko which, by all accounts is one hell of a stone.

The cunundorum I have though is when I read things like "I finish on my [insert expensive natural stone here] then do 20 strokes on a pasted strop". Now to me that sort of defeats the point of spending allot of money on an expensive natural hone as the actual finished edge is from the paste and not the hone ! If you are going to finish with pastes are you not better to hone with cheaper synthetic stones.

I am sure I'm missing the point here, but the only thing I can think is that people like to get the to the point of finishing on the naturals (ie the feel). However the final edge isn't down to the stone.
Y
Please help me here its driving me mad thinking about it

Mike, can't answer your question but I follow your logic. I'm also considering a guyoko, where would you get one from? I've looked for a UK or EU supplier but to no avail. The only suppliers I've found are in Japan.

Originally Posted by Anthony1954

Mike, can't answer your question but I follow your logic. I'm also considering a guyoko, where would you get one from? I've looked for a UK or EU supplier but to no avail. The only suppliers I've found are in Japan.

I might be wrong but I don't think there is a European supplier. The only place I have found them are from here Suehiro Gokumyo #20000 grit (@ 0.5 µm). : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan. again I may be wrong but during my reading on this stone I am sure I read that these are the sole supplier. Personally I have never ordered anything from Japan before but don't see there been an issue as there are plenty on here that already have the stone and if my info is correct they must have got them from there

The Suehiro Gokumyo 20K grit hone is indeed a fine finisher.
The trick with it though is to bring the edge to a state where you can get the most out of it.
That means to hone it all the way up to a 12K SS or similar before finishing it on the SG.
That is when this stone really shines.

Once you are there, 10-20 superlight laps on the SG20K will give you an edge that few stones can match.
Be it synth or natural.

And if you are anything like me, a good stropping on plain leather would be all tht is needed after that.
No need for any paste whatsoever

Edit 1:
As to the European seller, I bought mine from Germany about two+ years ago.
If I remember correctly it was at fine-tools.de...

Edit2:

Seems the German site is no longer carrying them.
Toolsfromjapan however still does.
I've bought many a stone from that vendor, he is a very helpful and knowledgeable guy.
Buy with confidence!

I've been using my gokumyo 20k for a few months now and dont need to use any pastes/sprays afterwards, why spend so much money on a stone then finish with some cro ox that costs a couple of quid?!
Like Birnardo said to really benefit from this stone your straight has to be shave ready before it touches it.
Gx2japan-messer-shop.de sell the gokumyo line as well but its still cheaper to buy from toolsfromjapan.