Honing Razors With A Jig and Stationary Blade

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Originally Posted by guitstik

Straight razors have a built in "jig", and that is the relationship of the spine to the width of the razor it's self. The angle, if I am not mistaken, is about 17degres. Others will correct me if I am wrong.

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Absolutely. A jig is excellent for knives but there is no need for one with a razor. In all honesty I could see your set up taking even longer than just running on stones. If this is a matter of economy and ease with minimal effort try lapping film on granite or glass. You had said you have some in your original post. I as well as others have had quite a great deal of success using it. I lap with 5, 3, and 1 micron film on glass using it like 4, 8, and 12k stones. Look up lapping film honing on YouTube for the jist, but then use Lynn's shapton stone video method. I recomend buying an actual 1k stone though. Sandpaper is too inconsistent and films over 5 micron are iffy. I've sharpened all kinds of knives for a long time, jigs are great for knives and other blades but they are just totally different. The only knife honing method that comes close to razor is a true Scandinavian grind. Even that is a bit different.

I would be interested to know if you have used it yet to hone a razor and if you have, what were the results like ? I can see where the difficulty would be on a full hollow ground blade where the edge flexes allot. Keeping a light enough pressure i could see been a real problem here. I am struggling to understand why it would not work on a wedge type razor though.

I just wonder how important the bevel angle actually is. Allot of people use tape on the spine while honing which increases the angle (granted not by much) anyway. I have also seen numerous posts regarding "thin bevels", which often appear to require a significant deviation from the natural angle provided by the blade geometry, yet the users report great shaves.

So how important is the bevel angle (within reason, i don't mean put a 45 degree bevel on it) in real world practical terms ?

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Originally Posted by mike1011

I would be interested to know if you have used it yet to hone a razor and if you have, what were the results like ? I can see where the difficulty would be on a full hollow ground blade where the edge flexes allot. Keeping a light enough pressure i could see been a real problem here. I am struggling to understand why it would not work on a wedge type razor though.

I just wonder how important the bevel angle actually is. Allot of people use tape on the spine while honing which increases the angle (granted not by much) anyway. I have also seen numerous posts regarding "thin bevels", which often appear to require a significant deviation from the natural angle provided by the blade geometry, yet the users report great shaves.

So how important is the bevel angle (within reason, i don't mean put a 45 degree bevel on it) in real world practical terms ?

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About a bevel or edge angle there is one thing that I believe is always true. The lower the angle (and thinner the blade) the better it will cut. This is just basic physics or something. When it comes to knives and other tools the blades need to be thicker and the angles need to be high only to give the blade and edge strength. Depending on the use of any given knife we always want the edge angle low enough to cut as well as possible but still be strong enough to hold up to any harder use. So as a basic rule the edge angle ALWAYS needs to be as low as possible while maintaining enough strength to do the job.

With straight razors it seems the angles are between 15 and 20 degrees inclusive. I have two razors and I checked them. One is approx. 16 and one is approx. 20 degrees (inclusive). The razor I have that is 16 degrees is old and was a gift to me and I have no idea how much it has been used. But, the spine is significantly thinner than my newer one. That makes the edge angle lower. I can hone both so they produce decent shaves. My honing is not the best but I get the same job done on both. Both shave ok but I can't tell any difference in the two that I can attribute to one having a lower angle. I think once a blade is thin enough and the angle is low enough they will perform the job of shaving equally even if the same rule of physics applies. At least they perform equally enough for people to not be able to tell a difference. OTOH, someone with more experience with straight shaving and different razors may be able to feel a difference I can't.

Razor with 16 degree edge angle has a spine that is 4.36mm thick.
Razor with 20 degree edge angle has a spine that is 5.45mm thick.

My angle measurements are approximations but pretty close I think. Both razors are 5/8", hollow grind.

This is how the issue of lower angles seems to me but I don't have a lot of experience.

Jack

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Originally Posted by mike1011

I would be interested to know if you have used it yet to hone a razor and if you have, what were the results like ? I can see where the difficulty would be on a full hollow ground blade where the edge flexes allot. Keeping a light enough pressure i could see been a real problem here. I am struggling to understand why it would not work on a wedge type razor though.

I just wonder how important the bevel angle actually is. Allot of people use tape on the spine while honing which increases the angle (granted not by much) anyway. I have also seen numerous posts regarding "thin bevels", which often appear to require a significant deviation from the natural angle provided by the blade geometry, yet the users report great shaves.

So how important is the bevel angle (within reason, i don't mean put a 45 degree bevel on it) in real world practical terms ?

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Having never used a jig to sharpen anything I can only speculate. What I think about, to draw an analogy, is free weights versus a smith machine, or something like that. Where on the one hand you lift with free weights and your core controls the movement, versus lifting with a machine, and you are locked in to the movement dictated by the machine. With old wedges virtually all of them were ground with a smiling profile. Unless the blade is straight as a string I cannot see how a jig could work as well as freehand manipulation following the blade profile. YMMV.

As I see it the most significant benefit of a jig system is being able to control the angle. But another benefit can be the speed of sharpening. I'm thinking of knives because that is what these systems are use for the most. But it made me think of how the razors are honed when they are manufactured prior to being put into a box. I understand they are mostly not shave ready and need at least minor honing when new. I imagine this is due to the time it would require to get every razor shave ready at the factory and how that might effect the price. But, maybe a jig system or something like that could be used at the factory for quickly putting an edge on a razor. Maybe that is already being done. I don't know. I'm just thinking and typing. :)

A friend gave me a razor that needed work on the edge to remove chips and nicks. I used my Edge Pro to do the majority of the work to begin with. This worked very well. It worked very well for the majority of the work but not for the final work to get the razor shave ready. Also, I just watched Lynn's video on setting the initial bevel using Shapton glass stones. I can't see how any system could do a better job than just following Lynn's process and technique. Purhaps after practicing and using a "system" like an EP, WE or home made device you could get razors shave ready but I don't see how they could be better than the already established methods. Nothing wrong with trying new things though. That's how some things get better.

If I ever get another razor that has chips and nicks in the edge I'll try using the Edge Pro as well as using a 1k or coarser stone depending on how bad it is. But for the final results I'm betting the tried and true methods are better. Just my inexperienced opinion.

Jack

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Originally Posted by mike1011

I would be interested to know if you have used it yet to hone a razor and if you have, what were the results like ? I can see where the difficulty would be on a full hollow ground blade where the edge flexes allot. Keeping a light enough pressure i could see been a real problem here. I am struggling to understand why it would not work on a wedge type razor though.

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With some modification to a Lansky jig sharpener, I tried precisely as you suggest and set a 17 degree bevel on a John Heiffor near-wedge using the ~1k attachment. To its credit, it made reaching all of the seriously-smiley blade fairly easy and the bevel was evenly set - something that would have been tricky on stones. My Lansky set is all out of ideas after 1k so the blade had to go to the stones for further refinement but the jig set an nice, even bevel. Given the aggressive smiling profile of the wedge, the jig had an advantage over the stones as it didn't requiring rolling strokes over the hone but it was very fiddly to prevent the spine of the razor from rotating in the clamp - certainly not an ideal solution.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

With old wedges virtually all of them were ground with a smiling profile. Unless the blade is straight as a string I cannot see how a jig could work as well as freehand manipulation following the blade profile. YMMV.

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I have used a wicked edge in the past (not mine) on a couple of kitchen knives and while its not my cup of tea (i still much prefer free hand) i must say that it did work very well. The way it works does allow you to follow a curve in the blade so that in itself would not be an issue with the set up :D

My main concern would be, been able to set a low enough angle on the bevel (if the angle is indeed a major issue) and been able to control the pressure on the blade. The pressure IMO would be the hardest thing to control, i think you could get the angle low enough, the stones would only just have to clear the spine.

I don't think any of the commercial jigs allow for the low angles on a razor, i may be wrong here but i don't recall ever seeing a jig that goes lower than 15 degrees (30 inclusive).

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Having never used a jig to sharpen anything I can only speculate. What I think about, to draw an analogy, is free weights versus a smith machine, or something like that. Where on the one hand you lift with free weights and your core controls the movement, versus lifting with a machine, and you are locked in to the movement dictated by the machine. With old wedges virtually all of them were ground with a smiling profile. Unless the blade is straight as a string I cannot see how a jig could work as well as freehand manipulation following the blade profile. YMMV.

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I'm new to honing razors, but I've used a lot of different jigs for sharpening steel. Knives are different. The blade has a lot of strength (due primarily to the thickness) and is an important part of the jig, stone, blade system. Jigs are really nice when sharpening knives. The angle is set precisely and the stress of holding a free hand angle is eliminated.

As someone else said, razors have a built in jig (the spine, edge, and stone), but that jig is still flexible; and hence the need to have a light touch. I guess I could envision a jig that provide rigid support for the razor, but it would make the jig more complicated.

If I think about this more? If I was going to try and come up with an automated method? I'd probably go with something robotic. Not a full blown Television style robot, but rather an industrial robot built at home. The challenges there are the tolerances, forces, and required feedback are subtle. Certainly it could be done, but it is far cheaper to just learn to hone a razor using your hand.

This is why even in a modern highly automated factory, you run across work stations still run by humans. There are dexterity and control problems that humans solve far more cheaper than automation. Now if you had to hone to shave ready a few million razors, then the investment is worth it. But at low volume with great results, humans are frequently difficult to beat.

So all in all, I don't know. Whoever said a wedge would work in a jig is probably right. The more the blade looks like a knife the better the jig will work. Honing my hollow ground blade, I was very struck by exactly how flexible the blade is on such a tool. No wonder blade geometry is not always consistent razor to razor. I'm keenly interested in seeing how this plays out.


Best,

Ed

Not that it matters but ...... my father taught me to sharpen pocket knives when I was 14 or so. To the point where I could shave hair on my leg. Using Arkansas stones and I have been doing that all of my life since. When I first read about these apparatuses for sharpening I looked into it and found they were expensive. So I never even considered buying one. I have no doubt that my pocket knife, kitchen knives, what have you, would be sharper and more consistent with the jig, but there is a certain reward I get from doing them freehand, that I just don't think I would feel with the gizmo. Even if the edge was better.

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Originally Posted by mike1011

I have used a wicked edge in the past (not mine) on a couple of kitchen knives and while its not my cup of tea (i still much prefer free hand) i must say that it did work very well. The way it works does allow you to follow a curve in the blade so that in itself would not be an issue with the set up :D

My main concern would be, been able to set a low enough angle on the bevel (if the angle is indeed a major issue) and been able to control the pressure on the blade. The pressure IMO would be the hardest thing to control, i think you could get the angle low enough, the stones would only just have to clear the spine.

I don't think any of the commercial jigs allow for the low angles on a razor, i may be wrong here but i don't recall ever seeing a jig that goes lower than 15 degrees (30 inclusive).

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Just for info, I have the Edge Pro and it easily gets as low as 10 degrees per side or lower with a "trick". I've heard WE users say they need an adapter or something to get lower than 15 degrees per side. Still, I don't think they are a good tool for razors. Well, not better than the "normal" way. :)