Thread: Honing Razors With A Jig and Stationary Blade

Originally Posted by mike1011

I would be interested to know if you have used it yet to hone a razor and if you have, what were the results like ? I can see where the difficulty would be on a full hollow ground blade where the edge flexes allot. Keeping a light enough pressure i could see been a real problem here. I am struggling to understand why it would not work on a wedge type razor though.

I just wonder how important the bevel angle actually is. Allot of people use tape on the spine while honing which increases the angle (granted not by much) anyway. I have also seen numerous posts regarding "thin bevels", which often appear to require a significant deviation from the natural angle provided by the blade geometry, yet the users report great shaves.

So how important is the bevel angle (within reason, i don't mean put a 45 degree bevel on it) in real world practical terms ?

Having never used a jig to sharpen anything I can only speculate. What I think about, to draw an analogy, is free weights versus a smith machine, or something like that. Where on the one hand you lift with free weights and your core controls the movement, versus lifting with a machine, and you are locked in to the movement dictated by the machine. With old wedges virtually all of them were ground with a smiling profile. Unless the blade is straight as a string I cannot see how a jig could work as well as freehand manipulation following the blade profile. YMMV.

As I see it the most significant benefit of a jig system is being able to control the angle. But another benefit can be the speed of sharpening. I'm thinking of knives because that is what these systems are use for the most. But it made me think of how the razors are honed when they are manufactured prior to being put into a box. I understand they are mostly not shave ready and need at least minor honing when new. I imagine this is due to the time it would require to get every razor shave ready at the factory and how that might effect the price. But, maybe a jig system or something like that could be used at the factory for quickly putting an edge on a razor. Maybe that is already being done. I don't know. I'm just thinking and typing.

A friend gave me a razor that needed work on the edge to remove chips and nicks. I used my Edge Pro to do the majority of the work to begin with. This worked very well. It worked very well for the majority of the work but not for the final work to get the razor shave ready. Also, I just watched Lynn's video on setting the initial bevel using Shapton glass stones. I can't see how any system could do a better job than just following Lynn's process and technique. Purhaps after practicing and using a "system" like an EP, WE or home made device you could get razors shave ready but I don't see how they could be better than the already established methods. Nothing wrong with trying new things though. That's how some things get better.

If I ever get another razor that has chips and nicks in the edge I'll try using the Edge Pro as well as using a 1k or coarser stone depending on how bad it is. But for the final results I'm betting the tried and true methods are better. Just my inexperienced opinion.

Jack

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

With old wedges virtually all of them were ground with a smiling profile. Unless the blade is straight as a string I cannot see how a jig could work as well as freehand manipulation following the blade profile. YMMV.

I have used a wicked edge in the past (not mine) on a couple of kitchen knives and while its not my cup of tea (i still much prefer free hand) i must say that it did work very well. The way it works does allow you to follow a curve in the blade so that in itself would not be an issue with the set up

My main concern would be, been able to set a low enough angle on the bevel (if the angle is indeed a major issue) and been able to control the pressure on the blade. The pressure IMO would be the hardest thing to control, i think you could get the angle low enough, the stones would only just have to clear the spine.

I don't think any of the commercial jigs allow for the low angles on a razor, i may be wrong here but i don't recall ever seeing a jig that goes lower than 15 degrees (30 inclusive).

Originally Posted by mike1011

I have used a wicked edge in the past (not mine) on a couple of kitchen knives and while its not my cup of tea (i still much prefer free hand) i must say that it did work very well. The way it works does allow you to follow a curve in the blade so that in itself would not be an issue with the set up

My main concern would be, been able to set a low enough angle on the bevel (if the angle is indeed a major issue) and been able to control the pressure on the blade. The pressure IMO would be the hardest thing to control, i think you could get the angle low enough, the stones would only just have to clear the spine.

I don't think any of the commercial jigs allow for the low angles on a razor, i may be wrong here but i don't recall ever seeing a jig that goes lower than 15 degrees (30 inclusive).

Just for info, I have the Edge Pro and it easily gets as low as 10 degrees per side or lower with a "trick". I've heard WE users say they need an adapter or something to get lower than 15 degrees per side. Still, I don't think they are a good tool for razors. Well, not better than the "normal" way.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Having never used a jig to sharpen anything I can only speculate. What I think about, to draw an analogy, is free weights versus a smith machine, or something like that. Where on the one hand you lift with free weights and your core controls the movement, versus lifting with a machine, and you are locked in to the movement dictated by the machine. With old wedges virtually all of them were ground with a smiling profile. Unless the blade is straight as a string I cannot see how a jig could work as well as freehand manipulation following the blade profile. YMMV.

I'm new to honing razors, but I've used a lot of different jigs for sharpening steel. Knives are different. The blade has a lot of strength (due primarily to the thickness) and is an important part of the jig, stone, blade system. Jigs are really nice when sharpening knives. The angle is set precisely and the stress of holding a free hand angle is eliminated.

As someone else said, razors have a built in jig (the spine, edge, and stone), but that jig is still flexible; and hence the need to have a light touch. I guess I could envision a jig that provide rigid support for the razor, but it would make the jig more complicated.

If I think about this more? If I was going to try and come up with an automated method? I'd probably go with something robotic. Not a full blown Television style robot, but rather an industrial robot built at home. The challenges there are the tolerances, forces, and required feedback are subtle. Certainly it could be done, but it is far cheaper to just learn to hone a razor using your hand.

This is why even in a modern highly automated factory, you run across work stations still run by humans. There are dexterity and control problems that humans solve far more cheaper than automation. Now if you had to hone to shave ready a few million razors, then the investment is worth it. But at low volume with great results, humans are frequently difficult to beat.

So all in all, I don't know. Whoever said a wedge would work in a jig is probably right. The more the blade looks like a knife the better the jig will work. Honing my hollow ground blade, I was very struck by exactly how flexible the blade is on such a tool. No wonder blade geometry is not always consistent razor to razor. I'm keenly interested in seeing how this plays out.


Best,

Ed

Not that it matters but ...... my father taught me to sharpen pocket knives when I was 14 or so. To the point where I could shave hair on my leg. Using Arkansas stones and I have been doing that all of my life since. When I first read about these apparatuses for sharpening I looked into it and found they were expensive. So I never even considered buying one. I have no doubt that my pocket knife, kitchen knives, what have you, would be sharper and more consistent with the jig, but there is a certain reward I get from doing them freehand, that I just don't think I would feel with the gizmo. Even if the edge was better.

Good points.

It does depend on what you want and the application. Frankly how much you like designing and building jigs too. I've free hand sharpened my own pocket knife and got great results. Years ago in the hospital I was asked to repair and re-sharpen a surgical amputation knife. I set up a jig and got the edge precisely to specifications.

Same thing, I've free hand machined metal parts on old manual milling machines. But with a need for many parts, I've designed complex jigs and run the lot on a CNC milling machine. There is a certain satisfaction in both approaches. But I agree if you need precision, a lot of repeatability, or higher throughput a jig is nice.

I'm still stuck on how flexible the blade is on a hollow ground straight razor. I really think by hand is going to get the best result at the lowest cost. If it didn't? One of the higher volume straight razor producers would have figured out a way to automate 'shave ready' for real and use it as a competitive advantage. My guess is it just costs to much to take the human out of this process and the volume of production doesn't justify the expense.

Best,

Ed

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Not that it matters but ...... my father taught me to sharpen pocket knives when I was 14 or so. To the point where I could shave hair on my leg. Using Arkansas stones and I have been doing that all of my life since. When I first read about these apparatuses for sharpening I looked into it and found they were expensive. So I never even considered buying one. I have no doubt that my pocket knife, kitchen knives, what have you, would be sharper and more consistent with the jig, but there is a certain reward I get from doing them freehand, that I just don't think I would feel with the gizmo. Even if the edge was better.

Dad taught me to sharpen about the same age and also using Arkansas stones I used them until 6 or 7 years ago. Then I decided I wanted to get the edges as sharp as possible. I always loved a sharp edge and now wanted to explore the sharper edges. I got a few things including an Edge Pro. I got really good at using it as can get edges REALLY sharp. I can whittle a hair and all that. Then about 2 years ago I decided I wanted to develop a high skill level at free hand sharpening. Now I can get the same sharpness free hand. I don't know exactly what angle the edge is like you do with the "systems" but that's not real important. It seems to me about all of these systems or free hand are as good as the amount of effort you put into them. I have to say I get more personal satisfaction from free hand sharpening than using the EP. The EP does require some experience (like any tool) to get the really supurb results but for the most part a person brand new to sharpening will have far better results much faster by using a system that controls the edge or bevel angle.

Anyway, I doubt your results would be better using a system. Just a different way to do the same thing. Some pros, some cons. The biggest differnce IMO is the learning curve for new people. Systems are faster to give good results. But for straight razors??? Not the best tool or method IMO.

Jack