Thread: Can you "feel" progress when honing?

Good question (EDIT: MikekiM).
On the shapton vs chosera it was mostly a preference thing. I have gs 500 & 1K that get used once. For me, I feel that the Chosera 1K may be a bit gentler on the spine & I like the feel of it starting out with a little slurry and finishing on a clean wet stone to get the bevel set. A chosera 1k is not as fast as a shapton gs 1k. Sometimes on a really hard razor, like a SRP TI the other day, I reverted to the GS 1k for the bevel set as my patience wasn't there to work with the chosera.

Fragile edge off a 16k
I have found that it will happen more with old blades like those from England, some middle aged blades like the German ones, and less on the newer blades like the current production blades. It's about hardness and if the steel can hold up to a very fine edge without literally breaking. Think about a file that you drop on a floor and it breaks...it's hard and can't handle that abuse. A 16K edge is pushing the limit on the microscopic fine edge that develops and continues to refine with each progression of a finer stone. What I call a overhoned/fragile edge is one that starts out great on a shave and falls to pieces before you can finish the shave. I did it more than once learning and still will shave with a razor that someone sends me to ensure that I haven't pushed the edge too far.

Lastly, I have learned something, but can't scientifically prove my theory...yet. A while back, Sham and I were talking about finishers, both synthetic and naturals. He was testing my shapton gs 30k. I was finding that I didn't really care for the stone as it would push a edge too far real quick and was wanting his feedback as he was my honing mentor. What I have concluded is that I feel (key word feel, I have not proven it) that a natural finished edge will hold up longer shaving than a synthetic edge. This is why I hone to 16K and then finish mostly on a yellow green escher. It is a faster way to finish a razor as it takes less time on the natural finisher too. Of course it's a theory, but it works for me every time on every razor that is of any quality. As far as the Zulu. I messed with it quite a bit when it was new & sold it. If I am going to do that many strokes on it, I prefer my Charnley Forrest on oil. I am not downing the ZG at all, it's a great find for the razor community...just not my cup of tea, but then again I have a really nice CF too.

What say ye DaveW, what is your experience with the Shapton GS's?

Very interesting post shooter. Right now the only stones I have to use for razors is the Shapton glass up to 16k. Most of the experienced guys seem to say you can go straight to a strop after an 8k. Having said that they all also use a Naniwa 12k or conicle or something else. So, since I'm learning right now I imagine that going to a 16k (skipping 12k) maybe the grit is finer than needed. And if I spend too much time on the 16k I am probably over-honing the edge. I really appreciate your post because I also didn't know what over-honing meant or the results when it occurs. If I understand you correctly, spending to much time (too many strokes) on the 16k my edges may be too fragile not only for shaving but if they are too fragile I may be destroying it when stropping also, which I'm also just learning. Learning meaning just barely one year at it.

I have a new strategy now. Please confirm if it sounds ok to you. After I'm finished with the 8k I'll just do 3 or 4 passes on the 16k. I doubt I could over-hone the edge doing that. I'll use as little pressure as I can. Then I'll use a webbing strop. Right now I have .25 diamond spray on it. Maybe 15-20 passes? Less? More? What do you think. I know it's almost impossible to estimate and advise someone else. But a ballpark guess would be appreciated. Then on the leather strop I'll do 50 passes? More? Less? It seems 50+ passes on just a leather strop between shaves is a good average to start with. Then with experience you learn what works good for you.

For what it's worth... I go straight from the 8k to a pasted strop. If it still feels 'unfinished' when I try it I then go to a Barber hone and then back to the pasted strop. I use Crox on the strop.

Not sure that the leather really does anything after the pasted strop, but if the leather spirit moves me I'll do ~20 on horse.

Originally Posted by Johnus

For what it's worth... I go straight from the 8k to a pasted strop. If it still feels 'unfinished' when I try it I then go to a Barber hone and then back to the pasted strop. I use Crox on the strop.

Not sure that the leather really does anything after the pasted strop, but if the leather spirit moves me I'll do ~20 on horse.

I tried that once but the horse wouldn't stand still. I crack myself up. To be honest I've never really understood how bare leather does anything noticeable to an edge. However, I've been working hard (long hours) learning to sharpen knives for 6-7 years and a bare kangaroo (VERY smooth leather) makes a very significant difference in the edge. Of course the edge on a knife has to already be super sharp but the roo seems to put a "keenness" on the edge that I can definitely notice. With razors it's different. First the technique is completely different. Second the blade and edge is so thin it magnifies the fragility OR the perfection when it's done right. People have chewed me out when I bring up knife sharpening in the conversation about honing razors. But, it's just how I compare them that I understand more clearly. Well, I think I understand more clearly.

Anyway, my semi-understanding of a bare leather strop is it's not for sharpening. I's more for adding a smoothing or burnishing characteristic to the edge. The smoothing may just smooth the microscopic teeth that are on every sharp edge. This is a semi-explanation of my semi-understanding.

Use a razor for 2 or 4 shaves without doing anything to it. Then strop the heck out of it. 100 or 150 laps. Is it sharp again ? You betcha ! To me the strop is just like any hone. It has it's job and does it. Some call it keeping it sharp, others maintenance, and I have never heard of anyone over stropping a razor.

See me leaning toward the strop more side :<0) I do a minimum of 25 linen, 75 horse *hint ( Tie the horse to a post). If I fail to do it well or take a short cut I feel it in the shave.

I agree with Shooter on about everything he says and as for stropping after a honing I do similar to 10pups, 100 laps on linen/canvas and then 100 on leather. I have been ridiculed in the past for this but I will stand by it, it does wonders to finish an edge.

Originally Posted by 10Pups

Use a razor for 2 or 4 shaves without doing anything to it. Then strop the heck out of it. 100 or 150 laps. Is it sharp again ? You betcha ! To me the strop is just like any hone. It has it's job and does it. Some call it keeping it sharp, others maintenance, and I have never heard of anyone over stropping a razor.

See me leaning toward the strop more side :<0) I do a minimum of 25 linen, 75 horse *hint ( Tie the horse to a post). If I fail to do it well or take a short cut I feel it in the shave.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I agree with Shooter on about everything he says and as for stropping after a honing I do similar to 10pups, 100 laps on linen/canvas and then 100 on leather. I have been ridiculed in the past for this but I will stand by it, it does wonders to finish an edge.

+1...For number of laps on the strops after honing and for refreshing a blade's edge with lots of laps on a strop when it starts to dull a tad. It works for me!

I have two razors. A Boker and a L. Herder & Son. I watched the video of Lynn using Shapton glass stones starting at 1k. I did that to both razors a month ago. I have felt since I am still learning I need practice even when the razors are shave ready. So I have been shaving with the Boker and "practicing" with the other. Since I honed the Boker all I've done to it is strop it. 10-20 passes on webbing with .25 micron diamond spray. then 50-75 on leather. This has kept the razor in good shape I believe. The other razor I just can't get it as sharp as it was after the 1k-16k honing. I think there is something wrong with the razor. Yeah right. I'm pretty sure my "practicing" has done more damage than anything else. In the past week I have tried to shave with it and it always feels dull. So after one side of my chin I pick up the Boker and sure enough it does much better. For some reason when I first started straight razor shaving I started on one side of my chin and worked toward the sideburn. Then the other side of the chin and to that sideburn. Anyway, now I'm thinking if I got the Boker shave ready a month ago and have kept it in pretty good shape since then maybe I shouldn't "practice" so much. I'm going to set the bevel again on the other razor starting with 1k and continue through 16k then strop on the two strops. See what happens. I'm also going to send that razor to Lynn sometime soon for him to hone. I need to shave with a razor honed by a pro to see what that feels like. Then I'll know if I'm doing good, bad or terrible. Even though I'm still having trouble I'm not discouraged. It's a learning curve and I just need to keep it on the road until I get through the curve.

I have a webbing strop that I have .25 micron diamond spray on one side and I put .5 micron chromium oxide crayon on the other side. It's the crayon from SRD. I used the brand new CO for a week or two and didn't think it was working very well. I had reversed the webbing strop. So I reversed it back and I think I get better results from the side with diamond spray. Does this make sense to anyone. I have to remember I don't have the skill or experience to accurately judge what I'm doing.

I have also been planning on getting some DMT .5 micron spray when I feel the .25 starts loosing it's abrasion and use it. Does anyone think there's enough difference in .25 and .5 micron diamond spray to be concerned with? I got the .25 spray from Chef knives to go. IMO the quality is good because it works great on leather for knives.

Jack you got too many irons in the fire buddy. Just my humble opinion but you should try to hone your skills and be able to shave off an 8k,linen and then leather. If you can't do that you are adding to much to the mix and confusing yourself. Shooter makes it sound so easy but that feel you get on the hone has to translate to your face. If you just go through all the steps you won't know at which step you went off road. Just thinking out loud here but I hope it helps :<0)