Thread: Can you "feel" progress when honing?

I just honed my razor starting with a 4k then 8k then 16k stone. All Shapton glass stones that are flat and clean. When I started on the 4k I could feel a slight gritty feel as the razor passed over the stone. This occurs on both sides of the edge. Then somewhere between 5 -10 passes the gritty feeling smooths out and goes away. Then when I move to the 8k I get the same gritty feeling but then it goes away also. After the feeling is nice and smooth I move to the 16k. Then I get the exact same gritty feeling that smooths out. I was wondering if anyone else has these same feelings.

Any thoughts?

Yes, if your paying attention you will feel this. I like to go a little farther lighter after that but that's me :<0)

Jack,
When you say you are using flat and clean stones I assume you mean that they are freshly lapped?
When you start with a freshly lapped hone the surface will microscopically look like a furrowed field. A few passes later you have worn down the high area between the furrows leaving a much flatter and smoother feeling hone.
A freshly lapped hone cuts relatively fast, but what you feel is probably more the hones surface changing, but the bevel has also gotten smoother.
This smoother feeling should not be used as the solo indication that it is time to move to the next finer hone.
New razors or any razor that has a very narrow bevel will naturally take much less honing than blades with a very wide bevel.
Some of those large antique wedges can take a lot of passes before they are ready for the next hone.
I have the luxury of a fairly good microscope that helps me determine when the bevel is ready for a finer grit hone.

Originally Posted by Galaxy51

Jack,
When you say you are using flat and clean stones I assume you mean that they are freshly lapped? That is correct. I use a diamond stone (3"x8") and lap each stone until the entire surface is completely white. I have on occasion used a steel 12" ruler to see how flat a stone is. I have also checked flatness by stroking my 10" (non-serrated) carving knife. It has a straight edge with no curvature (belly) at all. When it leaves steel on the entire width of the stone I consider the stone flat.
When you start with a freshly lapped hone the surface will microscopically look like a furrowed field. A few passes later you have worn down the high area between the furrows leaving a much flatter and smoother feeling hone. After lapping I'm assuming the entire surface is flat. After a while the middle of the stone will be dished. This I believe will create contact inconsistency between razor (spine and edge) and the stone.
A freshly lapped hone cuts relatively fast, but what you feel is probably more the hones surface changing, but the bevel has also gotten smoother. I wonder if the small amount of slurry created caused the smoother feeling. That would explain it. Shapton glass stones create a very small amount of slurry compared to some other water stones. Still, maybe it's enough to explain the feeling changing. I'm going to test this by once the smoothness is consistent on a stone I'll clean and dry the stone. Then I'll start again on the same stone. If the grittyness is there I'll attribute the grittyness to the stone as you said.
This smoother feeling should not be used as the solo indication that it is time to move to the next finer hone.
New razors or any razor that has a very narrow bevel will naturally take much less honing than blades with a very wide bevel.
Some of those large antique wedges can take a lot of passes before they are ready for the next hone.
I have the luxury of a fairly good microscope that helps me determine when the bevel is ready for a finer grit hone.

How much magnification do you need to see enough detail? I have a loupe with a 30x and 60x lens. It's an inexpensive loupe so the magnification may not be completely accurate. I have seen pictures of edges magnified as high as 400x and higher. Some microscopes will copy the image to the pc. Then they can be shared on forums like any digital picture.

I have been exclusively using shapton gs's for several years now. I use chosera 1K, shapton gs 2,4,8,16, followed by a natural finisher. I make reference to my experience on these stones because if a person hasn't used them, they really don't have a clue about how fast they are.

You are starting to feel what is going on and you are dead on with your thoughts. Shapton's are faster than any other stone that I have had my hands on. When you feel the "gritty" feeling and it goes to a more smooth feeling, you are literally removing the rough scratches of the previous grit. For me, I will wait until I get that smooth feeling (you will notice the stone starts to pull the razor) and then go a few more passes each side (normally about 10x on the 4 & 8K) to ensure I have removed all of the previous scratch marks. On 16k I go to where both sides get that smooth feeling on BOTH sides, then go 2-4 more passes. Caution on the 16k as if you do too many strokes on it, it will easily overhone a edge. The edge will become too fragile to hold up to a shave and will break down.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I have been exclusively using shapton gs's for several years now. I use chosera 1K, shapton gs 2,4,8,16, followed by a natural finisher. I make reference to my experience on these stones because if a person hasn't used them, they really don't have a clue about how fast they are.

You are starting to feel what is going on and you are dead on with your thoughts. Shapton's are faster than any other stone that I have had my hands on. When you feel the "gritty" feeling and it goes to a more smooth feeling, you are literally removing the rough scratches of the previous grit. For me, I will wait until I get that smooth feeling (you will notice the stone starts to pull the razor) and then go a few more passes each side (normally about 10x on the 4 & 8K) to ensure I have removed all of the previous scratch marks. On 16k I go to where both sides get that smooth feeling on BOTH sides, then go 2-4 more passes. Caution on the 16k as if you do too many strokes on it, it will easily overhone a edge. The edge will become too fragile to hold up to a shave and will break down.

Great opportunity to ask a few questions...

I am a Shapton Glass user as well.. 2,4,8 & 16. I have a 10k that I bought in error and haven't used and I had a Chosera 1k but gave it up as part of a trade. I intend to replace it. Why did you choose to go with a Chosera 1k instead of the Shapton 1k?

I am also interested in the idea of over-cooking the edge on the 16k. I have been relying on the stone feedback as my indicator. The suction and sort of staccato that develops. Then a few strokes more and done.

What is actually happening to the edge if you continue too far and what are the indicators that an edge is potentially fragile and overdone?

Last... While I love the Shapton stones and I can turn out consistently good edges with them, I find the 16k a bit too synthetic and forensic feeling when compared to the edge from a natural finisher. I have been finishing the edge with 50+ super light strokes on a water-only Zulu. Mellows things out. Am I vulnerable to overcooking the edge here as well? I use the same feedback cues on the Zulu as indicators to stop and move to the strop.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I have been exclusively using shapton gs's for several years now. I use chosera 1K, shapton gs 2,4,8,16, followed by a natural finisher. I make reference to my experience on these stones because if a person hasn't used them, they really don't have a clue about how fast they are.

You are starting to feel what is going on and you are dead on with your thoughts. Shapton's are faster than any other stone that I have had my hands on. When you feel the "gritty" feeling and it goes to a more smooth feeling, you are literally removing the rough scratches of the previous grit. For me, I will wait until I get that smooth feeling (you will notice the stone starts to pull the razor) and then go a few more passes each side (normally about 10x on the 4 & 8K) to ensure I have removed all of the previous scratch marks. On 16k I go to where both sides get that smooth feeling on BOTH sides, then go 2-4 more passes. Caution on the 16k as if you do too many strokes on it, it will easily overhone a edge. The edge will become too fragile to hold up to a shave and will break down.

Here is your answer on your 16K. You can't really go any set number of strokes for any razor, you have to learn to feel. Once you feel the razor smooth out and start "stick-sion" (where the razor literally starts to feel like it is somewhat sticking evenly on both sides), go 2-3 more strokes. Then your web and leather. I am not a fan of any pastes/sprays, but those are an opinion thing. I feel they mask what you have done on the stones.

You mention something about putting a 12K in the shapton mix & you have a 16K...don't. Something you need to know is that there isn't really much difference in the two in particle size, but they are of different material & feel different & remove material at a different rate. Remember the K.I.S.S. principle. Most of the time we recommend a person learn to get good shaves off of a progression up to 8K. This ensures you have a proper foundation, which includes learning the "feel" of your stones. Stick with one "flavor" of stone, don't put a naniwa 12k in the mix of a shapton gs progression...use either or at the end, but never in the middle.

It's too bad I didn't know you lived where you do, I was in Pensacola Beach for a week at the end of September/First of October. An hour with someone who knows your stones would take weeks off your learning curve. If you can find someone within driving distance who hones with Shapton GS's...go to them! Your knowledge base is right there, but just a little time with a mentor would solidify things for you.

A good 60x will show all you really need to see to assess when you have acheived maximum effect with each hone.
My very old American Optical Stereo scope is set up as a 70x and I don't feel like I need any more magnification than that.
Good lighting is important too.

Depends on the razor and the stone. Sometimes a stone will have enough cutting power to show some black in the slurry when coarser edge is brought to it, but not do much once the edge is polished other than keep polishing it.

I never liked driving synthetic stones to do that kind of thing, though, it seemed like the shapton was hit or miss if more than a few strokes were made on it. Same with most synthetic finishers if you shave directly off of them with nothing but a strop and linen.

For what it's worth... I go straight from the 8k to a pasted strop. If it still feels 'unfinished' when I try it I then go to a Barber hone and then back to the pasted strop. I use Crox on the strop.

Not sure that the leather really does anything after the pasted strop, but if the leather spirit moves me I'll do ~20 on horse.