Thread: Shapton glass stones and others for finishing the razor edge.

I sent Lynn an email asking about this. I wanted to get his opinion. I also want other opinions so I decided to put the same message here instead of retyping it. I'm not concerned about setting a bevel. I'm concerned about the final sharpness of the edge and quality of the shave. Any and all help is much appreciated.

Hey Lynn,



I saw your video of re-setting a bevel starting with a 1k Shapton glass stone thru a 16k. I have these stones and have been learning to hone a razor using them for about a year. I have been getting my two razors sharp enough to shave effectively with but I never thought they were as good as possible. I got a Dovo from SRD and according to the site you hone them before they are shipped. This razor is a lot sharper than the ones I've been honing and stropping. I have been able to keep it in great shape with a leather hanging strop for a week or two now. This would indicate my stropping ability is getting better. So if my stropping is better why aren't my razors sharper? Must be the honing process. So where's the problem?


I've been using Shapton glass stones for my knives and they work very well. Except that is for the final edge apex. I can get the knife edges very sharp but I can get them sharper (I call it "crisper") with my DMT stones or my Spyderco ceramic stones. However, "sharper" doesn't mean the same thing to different people or for different tasks. I've accepted for some time that I can get a sharper edge by using something other than the Shapton glass stones on my knives. I finished honing a razor with the Spyderco fine grit and ultra-fine grit stones then stropped. The razor did as well or a little better but I only did that once. I'm going to use them some more in the next few days trying to see if there is any difference between them and the Shapton glass stones thru 16k. For a week or two I have stopped using the 16k stone and stropping after the 8k. The theory here is that new honers will tend to over-hone a razor with grits over 8k. I got that from the SRP forum. The shaves I get are absolutely no different than when I also use the 16k.



I think after a year of practicing honing I should be getting the edge sharper by now. Anyway, since I use something other than Shapton glass for the edge apex on knives I thought maybe another stone will do better for razors. The only other stone I have of a grit even close enough to the above 8k effect is the UF Spyderco.


Do you think the 16k Shapton glass stone will do as good as another stone? I've seen lots of praise for a Naniwa 12k. Do you think the 16k Shapton glass stone does as good a job as the Naniwa? I don't like to blame the tools but after a year I'm beginning to wonder. Since I can see a significant improvement with the edge on my knives with other stones maybe that would be the way to go for my razors also. What do you think? I don't want to continue with the 16k Shapton stone if I can get one that would do a better job on razors with someone at a given skill level. I also don't want to spend money on another stone if the 16k can do just as good after more practice and experience. How would you recommend someone practice honing? I used to scrape the edge of a knife on the side of a stone to dull it just to resharpen it for practice. I haven't done that with a razor. For razors I have started over with a 1k stone and gone through the progression just for practice. It took me about 3 years to really get a good edge on my knives. Also, I saw improvement a couple of times suddenly. It was like one day I could get the knives MUCH sharper. Like all the practice took effect all of a sudden.


I watched you use the Shapton glass 16k so I know you used it at least once. With your knowledge of many other stones what do you recommend I do? Get a different stone or just keep practicing with what I have? I appreciate any help.




Thanks,
Jack

You seem to have about the same amount of time honing as I do, so please take this in the spirit it is offered. At some point the stones used are not going to matter. You have set of quality stones, no issues there. Changing out what you final finisher is will not make you better at honing. I would hazard a guess and say there is some room for improvement in our technique. Have you had th chance to meet up with anyone and go practice?

I wont quote the man but it something like this learn the stones you have its worth more than buying new ones all the time ,, if you cant get a good shaving edge off of an 8k then your not there yet ,, and I don't hone ,, but I can tell you ,, its your abilitys at this time that is keeping you from achieving the edge you want, not the hones you have ,try getting with a mentor ,, and that guy always says "HONING IS EASY TILL IT AINT" you just need to get a little help tc

Try shaving after each step with the stones. 1k then shave. 5k then shave. You will know what each stone is adding.

Are you using any tests or loupes? With at least 10k loupe you can see your bevel. With a 60k you can see scratch patterns and microchips. Knives are not razors. The ultimate test of the edge is what it shaves like.

The idea of stropping and shaving at the 8k level isn't to avoid overhoning. The idea is that if your technique is up to snuff you'll get a DFS (damn fine shave) with the 8k. Going past 8k with a razor that is not 'up to snuff' is premature. Some folks dull an edge and start over. I've tried that once, when the concept first jumped off on SRP, a few years ago, but I haven't done that since. Getting a paper thin piece of metal beveled perfectly evenly from one end to the other, one side to the other, is difficult enough without adding more to the equation IMHO.

What I did when I was learning was acquire a lot of old razors in good condition. By that I mean they were full bladed, without uneven hone wear, scales weren't cracked, no chips/cracks in the blade visible to the naked eye. I used a decent eye loupe of 30x to examine the edges before, during, and after honing. Mainly to assure a correct bevel, and to check for micro chips.

I used to always take a sharpie and blacken the bevel when starting out, to make sure I was making good contact all along the bevel with the stroke I was using. Nowadays I'll only do that with blades I'm having trouble with, but it is a good way to go if you are still feeling you way in honing. I think one layer of electrical tape on the spine is a good idea until you're really confident in your honing. Once confident it is optional. I've done it both ways, and ended up going back to one layer on all of them. On some more than one layer but those are special cases, and few and far between with me.

The Shaptons, Nortons, Naniwa super stones were not designed to hone razors, but tools, such as plane blades, chisels. Fortunately for us, they work well with razors, but learning how much pressure to use takes time. How many round trips, that is why the pyramid method is helpful for beginners, and IMO the X stroke is best for beginners. The circle method is fine for experienced, confident honers but removes metal more quickly, to where you can go too far too fast if you aren't sure of what is going on.

Any of the aforementioned hones are fine for getting the job done. I've had 'em all and IMHO the glass stones are a bit more aggressive than the super stones. At least they feel that way to me. The naniwa 12k is a sweet stone. I like it better than the 16k glass stone, but I'm sure there are guys out there who would feel the opposite. I think it is a matter of learning with what you have, as long as it is the right tool for the job, and any of those will get 'er done.

Everyone seems to think I have the tools I need now and my ability is what needs to improve. So I'll keep working with what I have and try not to get impatient. This is better than spending more money and not get any better results. Thanks for the help.

Jack

PS
I wanted to watch Lynn's DVD again and I can't find it.

Well written Jimmy

Originally Posted by Jack0458

I sent Lynn an email asking about this. I wanted to get his opinion.

I got a reply from Lynn and he agrees with you guys. So instead of buying a magical stone I'll just have to keep working on my honing skill.

Jack

Hi Jack

Honing is like any other hobby. You must learn the fine points of the hobby in order to truly appreciate what is meh, good, great and then fantastic.

The more you appreciate a well honed razor, the better you will hone. You must have a benchmark.

I think it is great advice that all SR users have at least once in their life a blade from a honemeister.

Originally Posted by Jack0458

I'm not concerned about setting a bevel. I'm concerned about the final sharpness of the edge and quality of the shave.

I hope that means you have no difficulty setting an optimal bevel.
The end game you ask about is always about finesse , minimal strokes on your final stone & of course, stropping.
It's actually the easiest stage of honing for me.
This assumes a well set bevel & mid stage refinement, without which you're dead in the water.