Thread: a not to sharp question

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

But hey, you've been at this about as long as I have...

Yeah but you blasted past me way early on man.

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Can you give more specifics about your quarter-hollow issues?

I've got an old Joseph Elliot and a Wacker, both 1/4 hollows, and a TI almost true wedge.

The Wacker came shave-sharp from John Crowley, the TI super-shave-sharp from Chandler. So I have no doubts about the potential of either; the TI in particular gave me the closest shaves I've ever gotten period. These were my first two razors, and I was hesitant to do anything to them so I let them go too long without refreshing their edges. Now I have the balls to hone when I need to, but I'm not really getting anywhere with these.

The Joseph Elliot 1/4 hollow was a a rusty-as-hell ebay junker that I cleaned up pretty well. I can now get a decent shave with it.

None of these is particularly challenging in its geometry; all have a very, very subtle smile (think Mona Lisa) and no warping or anything I can see.

They're all about the same now; they shave fine with the grain, fairly uncomfortably against it. I tend to neglect them in favor of my vintage fillies, which i've found remarkably easy to maintain and in most cases hone. Every other Sunday or so I'll get out my coticule and my Tam O'shanter and try everything I can think of with the Wacker, the TI and the Joseph Elliot, and they just pretty much stay where they are. I don't even get them overhoned; discouraging as that would be it'd at least tell me where I was.

Thanks guys.

Originally Posted by dylandog

No, they don't pass the HHT. They shave OK, but not great. I can do laps and laps – like 50, say – on the coticule and they just don't even seem to change – they don't even get overhoned. They just keep cruising along, steady in their mediocrity.

I've never done that 45 degree thing on low grits, only high. I'll give that a try. Do you X while going at 45? It always seemed to me that both approaches combined would produce a very shallow angle of scratch mark...

I have a wedge that passes the HHT but I still think it needs lots of work before I take it to my face - of course, HHT is very subjective, etc.

I definitely recommend the 45 for the lower grids.

X or no X - I do both. Going on the feel of the edge, basically. I *think* the X gives me better results when I begin the process but is certainly more involved that the straight motion. However, on the 4K final stages, it's easier for me to just use the weight of the wedge and push / pull lightly without X-ing. Basically, the wedge is heavy enough to offset the scales hanging out, most of the time. So I just lay the blade 45 on the 4K without any other pressure for several laps without X to get the max of the hone. When I say easier - it's just that, not better or anything. I do use X on my polishing hones (thay are narrow, and I actually prefer them this way) - but it requires more attention and care from me.

Now, after all this - let me make it clear that I am not a honemeister

Cheers
Ivo

You have a lot of pressure just from the weight of the razor. This pressure causes the grit in the hone to deform the edge more than a lighter razor because the abrasive particles get a deeper bite and warp the edge as they gouge in to the fin and down the bevel. This is exacerbated by the smile: even a slight smile means the hone is only touching the bevel at a very narrow range.

You're gonna have to compensate for this somehow. The 45 degree angle is one way (by giving the abrasives a slower glancing approach to the fin), simply slowing down your stroke (way down) is another, supporting some of the weight of the razor is another (angle the scales back a bit), and going to a slower hone (maybe boron carbide paper or chrome oxide paper on glass) is yet another. You can also use something that is more lubricating than water, such as a thin oil like kerosene, on your hone.

Thanks Michael. This is the best and most detailed explanation I've ever read about why wedge grinds are more challenging. I always just thought it was "well, you're removing more metal."

What you say about how much extra weight is being focused on the edge really makes sense and goes a long way to explaining the 45 degree angle.

Recently I've found that slower is better for getting the really fine edge. With smiling razors I have the best luck using a fine barber hone held in my hand. It makes it easier to keep ultra light, even pressure, and the hone is slow enough that it doesn't punish you for a little mistake.

I haven't received my coticule yet, but it should be arriving any day. I got one that's 1.5 inches wide, because narrower works better for me on smiling and warped razors.

Josh

Originally Posted by dylandog

Thanks Michael. This is the best and most detailed explanation I've ever read about why wedge grinds are more challenging

I think it's high time that we voted Michael a Honemeister. Yes, he doesn't offer honing services but his understanding and skills certainly make him one. And don't get me started on his willingness to help people

Back to honing: I also do slow down when I feel I need to but was a bit ashamed of it because I thought the good guys go fast fast fast )
The slight lift to use less than the blade's weight - I seem to do this only towards the last several laps, if at all

Cheers
Ivo

Originally Posted by izlat

I think it's high time that we voted Michael a Honemeister. Yes, he doesn't offer honing services but his understanding and skills certainly make him one. And don't get me started on his willingness to help people

Hear, hear.

Nope, not a honemeister. no way no how. honemeisters have to be able to get razors sharp themselves, not just be able to tell others how to get them sharp.

Edit: On topic, a good way to visualize what's happening at the edge when you're honing is to take one of those pink trapezoidal faber-castell (or was it eberhard-castell) erasers and try to "hone" it on a wood rasp, a file, sandpaper etc. Try it both edge-forward and edge-trailing. Then try doing the same thing to a more brittle tan rubbergum eraser. Then try it on a piece of soft unhardened rubber to see why zeepks won't get sharp.

I'm not sure this edge-deformation model is really correct (hardened rubber doesn't "flow"), but it seems to do a good job of explaining why slow-cutting natural hones like the arkansas, tam o'shanter, and coticule seem to punch above their grit rating. And why diamond seems to leave a bad-feeling edge. And why abrasive strops seem to eventually weaken the edge. And why microchips occur and how to avoid them. And, umm, why the newspaper trick is (a) slow and (b) gets so sharp.

I started to get a pretty good feel for it after about 4 years. I, too, vote for some one-on-one training.

With barber hones, I've found that it makes honing tons easier to slightly cup the hone and tilt it ever so slightly up maybe 10-15 degrees, so that when you hone, your razor is angled upwards with less of the razor's weight bearing down on the hone. It's allowed me to have a better touch on putting edges on my razors.