Thread: a not to sharp question

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Another good idea that would shorten the timeframe is working with a razor that has a properly set bevel already. Learning to set a good bevel takes time, and when you're starting out it's hard to figure out if an edge is dull because you overhone it or because it needs some time on the lower grits, like 1K or so.

This is interesting, Josh. While a good bevel is definitely all-important, I tend to think of high-grit honing as trickier because of the importance of a very light touch. With the lower grits a little pressure evenly applied is fine. I use the magic marker and if it wears away evenly along the length of the blade, I tend to think I'm doing ok on those lower grits.

On the other hand, I think I might have the all-time record for slowest learner on the hones...around 8 months or so, though admittedly off and on...and there's some razors that are still giving me a hell of a time (all quarter hollows) so I wonder if I'm too casual in my approach to the 1k/4k.

I'd welcome feedback as to what you think is trickiest or most crucial about low-grit-honing. And if you have something to say about bevel-setting on 1/4 hollows, that'd be just gravy.

Curtis,

from what I hear everyone is having harder time getting these well honed. I'd choose one with a good grind geometry and no warps and stick with it, as many sessions as needed. Do they pass the HHT?

The 45 deg approach on the hone does helped me a lot (I thought you already do this but just in case added it here - it can help someone else reading)

Good luck
Ivo

Originally Posted by izlat

Curtis,

from what I hear everyone is having harder time getting these well honed. I'd choose one with a good grind geometry and no warps and stick with it, as many sessions as needed. Do they pass the HHT?

The 45 deg approach on the hone does helped me a lot (I thought you already do this but just in case added it here - it can help someone else reading)

Good luck
Ivo

No, they don't pass the HHT. They shave OK, but not great. I can do laps and laps – like 50, say – on the coticule and they just don't even seem to change – they don't even get overhoned. They just keep cruising along, steady in their mediocrity.

I've never done that 45 degree thing on low grits, only high. I'll give that a try. Do you X while going at 45? It always seemed to me that both approaches combined would produce a very shallow angle of scratch mark...

Originally Posted by dylandog

No, they don't pass the HHT. They shave OK, but not great. I can do laps and laps – like 50, say – on the coticule and they just don't even seem to change – they don't even get overhoned. They just keep cruising along, steady in their mediocrity.

I've never done that 45 degree thing on low grits, only high. I'll give that a try. Do you X while going at 45? It always seemed to me that both approaches combined would produce a very shallow angle of scratch mark...

I have a wedge that passes the HHT but I still think it needs lots of work before I take it to my face - of course, HHT is very subjective, etc.

I definitely recommend the 45 for the lower grids.

X or no X - I do both. Going on the feel of the edge, basically. I *think* the X gives me better results when I begin the process but is certainly more involved that the straight motion. However, on the 4K final stages, it's easier for me to just use the weight of the wedge and push / pull lightly without X-ing. Basically, the wedge is heavy enough to offset the scales hanging out, most of the time. So I just lay the blade 45 on the 4K without any other pressure for several laps without X to get the max of the hone. When I say easier - it's just that, not better or anything. I do use X on my polishing hones (thay are narrow, and I actually prefer them this way) - but it requires more attention and care from me.

Now, after all this - let me make it clear that I am not a honemeister

Cheers
Ivo

You have a lot of pressure just from the weight of the razor. This pressure causes the grit in the hone to deform the edge more than a lighter razor because the abrasive particles get a deeper bite and warp the edge as they gouge in to the fin and down the bevel. This is exacerbated by the smile: even a slight smile means the hone is only touching the bevel at a very narrow range.

You're gonna have to compensate for this somehow. The 45 degree angle is one way (by giving the abrasives a slower glancing approach to the fin), simply slowing down your stroke (way down) is another, supporting some of the weight of the razor is another (angle the scales back a bit), and going to a slower hone (maybe boron carbide paper or chrome oxide paper on glass) is yet another. You can also use something that is more lubricating than water, such as a thin oil like kerosene, on your hone.

Thanks Michael. This is the best and most detailed explanation I've ever read about why wedge grinds are more challenging. I always just thought it was "well, you're removing more metal."

What you say about how much extra weight is being focused on the edge really makes sense and goes a long way to explaining the 45 degree angle.

Originally Posted by dylandog

Thanks Michael. This is the best and most detailed explanation I've ever read about why wedge grinds are more challenging

I think it's high time that we voted Michael a Honemeister. Yes, he doesn't offer honing services but his understanding and skills certainly make him one. And don't get me started on his willingness to help people

Back to honing: I also do slow down when I feel I need to but was a bit ashamed of it because I thought the good guys go fast fast fast )
The slight lift to use less than the blade's weight - I seem to do this only towards the last several laps, if at all

Cheers
Ivo

Recently I've found that slower is better for getting the really fine edge. With smiling razors I have the best luck using a fine barber hone held in my hand. It makes it easier to keep ultra light, even pressure, and the hone is slow enough that it doesn't punish you for a little mistake.

I haven't received my coticule yet, but it should be arriving any day. I got one that's 1.5 inches wide, because narrower works better for me on smiling and warped razors.

Josh

Dylan,

Well, true enough. It's all tricky. For me, I spend most of my time on the 1K and 4K hones. If you do things right there, a short pyramid will take you to shave-ready.

I think there's a difference between shave-ready and maxing out the potential of the 8K, which is where the ultra light touch comes in. I'm not there yet, but I can get a nice shaving edge off the 8K without worrying too much about using light pressure.

I also think we tend to skip over the lower grits and end up spending tons of time on the higher grits to make up for it. I get the best results by making sure the edge passes the thumbnail test off the 1K and the HHT off the 4K. That's not always possible, but it's the goal I shoot for.

The magic marker is great for checking the evenness of your strokes. Just make sure that your bevel goes all the way to the edge before you jump up in grit--in other words, you should be looking to max out the sharpness on each grit before moving up.

But hey, you've been at this about as long as I have...

Can you give more specifics about your quarter-hollow issues?

Good luck,
Josh

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

But hey, you've been at this about as long as I have...

Yeah but you blasted past me way early on man.

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Can you give more specifics about your quarter-hollow issues?

I've got an old Joseph Elliot and a Wacker, both 1/4 hollows, and a TI almost true wedge.

The Wacker came shave-sharp from John Crowley, the TI super-shave-sharp from Chandler. So I have no doubts about the potential of either; the TI in particular gave me the closest shaves I've ever gotten period. These were my first two razors, and I was hesitant to do anything to them so I let them go too long without refreshing their edges. Now I have the balls to hone when I need to, but I'm not really getting anywhere with these.

The Joseph Elliot 1/4 hollow was a a rusty-as-hell ebay junker that I cleaned up pretty well. I can now get a decent shave with it.

None of these is particularly challenging in its geometry; all have a very, very subtle smile (think Mona Lisa) and no warping or anything I can see.

They're all about the same now; they shave fine with the grain, fairly uncomfortably against it. I tend to neglect them in favor of my vintage fillies, which i've found remarkably easy to maintain and in most cases hone. Every other Sunday or so I'll get out my coticule and my Tam O'shanter and try everything I can think of with the Wacker, the TI and the Joseph Elliot, and they just pretty much stay where they are. I don't even get them overhoned; discouraging as that would be it'd at least tell me where I was.

Thanks guys.