Thread: Tam O' Shanter Vs. Belgian Blue

Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I was really hoping that you would comment on this Randy since you were one of the "honemeisters" that I was referring to in my original post. So you use the TOS after the bevel is established on the 4K right? Do you always use the Norton 8K after using the TOS before moving onto the Escher? How many strokes do you usually use when using the TOS as an intermediate between the 4K and the 8K or do you go strictly by the feel of the hone? Also what percentage of razors do you estimate that you use the TOS on?

Thanks

Currently I always use the TOS after the Norton 4K for about 50-100 laps with a slurry on 100% of my razors. Sometimes I use the Norton 8k and sometimes I just jump directly to the Escher. But.... by jumping it takes a lot more laps on the Escher.

My results pretty much mirror Randy's. I use the 4k to establish a good bevel, then I'll use 50 laps on the TOS, then a modified 10/10 pyramid on the TOS/8k. Then a coticule or Thuringen, then Escher, then CrO2.

I tend to use it the same way as Randy and Joe, except that I usually follow it with the Shapton 8k (which is a fair bit finer than the Norton 8k but still a pretty fast hone), then the Shapton 15k, then the chrome oxide. I agree with Randy about the feedback, the TOS really tells you a lot about the conditions all along the bevel, any area that isn't quite there yet will feel markedly different on the hone.

Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

My results pretty much mirror Randy's. I use the 4k to establish a good bevel, then I'll use 50 laps on the TOS, then a modified 10/10 pyramid on the TOS/8k. Then a coticule or Thuringen, then Escher, then CrO2.

It's very interesting that all three honemeisters here use the 8K after the TOS. I had thought the TOS was more or less a substitute for the 8K.

Joe, how essential do you find this TOS/8K pyramid to be? I ask because I have a 1K/4K Norton but no 8K. I've been going 4K to TOS (50+ laps) to Coticule (~30 laps) and then chrome oxide on leather. The results are the best I've had from my own honing, and I've finally got my wedges sharp enough to go ATG, but there's always room for improvement.

Not that you asked me, Curtis - but I do find I don't like my 8K for some reason and try to limit my time on it. I would rather do 4K, Belgian Blue, Belgian Yellow, chromium, maybe Escher too after the Yellow.

Sometimes I also go to the Coticule right after 4K.

I think my particular 8K *may* cause microchipping...

Looking forward to Joe's response myself

Cheers
Ivo

FWIW I talked to Randy on the phone last night about the TOS hone and he told me that by using the TOS between the 4K and 8K Norton he can get an edge that is more comfortable on his skin (not necessarily sharper). He said that he thinks that it has something to do with the TOS leaving a finer scratch pattern than the Norton. Randy told me that he will sometimes go from the 4K to the TOS then skip the 8K Norton; however, when he does this he has to do many more passes on the coticule or escher before moving on to the chromium oxide.

I also talked to Howard on the phone this morning and he told me that neither he nor Lynn really like using this stone on razors; however, it is still a good stone for some applications in his opinion. I am going to order one to try for myself based on the endorsements of Randy, Joe, and Tony. If nothing else it will be a cool hone to have in my collection based on its history.

Originally Posted by izlat

Not that you asked me, Curtis - but I do find I don't like my 8K for some reason and try to limit my time on it. I would rather do 4K, Belgian Blue, Belgian Yellow, chromium, maybe Escher too after the Yellow.

I also do this sequence sometimes. Though I have yet to try the Escher. There's enough of a difference between it and the coticule?

To go back to the original question, in my experience as a non-honemeister who is nevertheless over the newbie hump and doing my own razors, I think the blue and the TOS are really very similar. Slow, creamy smooth medium fine hones that take their time but are a pleasure to use, give lots of feedback (and similar suction signalling (I think) that it's time to move on), and are generally worth the results.

Originally Posted by izlat

Sometimes I also go to the Coticule right after 4K.

Never tried it but why not. That crazy cat LX Emergency doesn't even bother with the 4K, just flies his hand hummingbird fast over a bout that some guys would call a rubbing stone for fifteen minutes straight and calls it a day. By all accounts his edges are proof that the method works in the right hands.

Even if the right hand is a left hand in his case.

Originally Posted by dylandog

That crazy cat LX Emergency doesn't even bother with the 4K, just flies his hand hummingbird fast over a bout that some guys would call a rubbing stone for fifteen minutes straight and calls it a day. By all accounts his edges are proof that the method works in the right hands.

I am still to hone my first blade, and don't want to do Nortons because they are not natural - I don't like synthetic things generally, preferring to use the things mother nature has provided us to get the job done.

However to me, it seems to make sense that if we are cutting with a 4k first, then moving to an 8k and then a coticule, that if we just spent long enough on the coticule we would achieve the same result anyway. The 4k only takes more metal off, but the final polish of the coticule is removing the cuts that the 4k and the 8k have made in the bevel anyway, so why not let it do all the cutting?

I realise we are not all, and most of us will probably never be, as fast as LX, but surely 30 minutes on the coticule is the same as a pyramid finishing with a couple of laps on the coticule. Same amount of material removed, only more gently and it took longer?

Or am I way off the mark here?

Si

Originally Posted by Sunsi

I realise we are not all, and most of us will probably never be, as fast as LX, but surely 30 minutes on the coticule is the same as a pyramid finishing with a couple of laps on the coticule. Same amount of material removed, only more gently and it took longer?

Or am I way off the mark here?

Si

Have a look at my experiences here.
Since I only had a yellow and blue at the time, I used that to de-burr the razor After I had damaged it when I grinded the spine to even out the hone wear.

To remove the burrs and denickify it at the end took me over 3.5 hours on the yellow, using an abrasive piece of coticule to raise a slurry.

I have removed similar nicks on my Norton 1K in under 10 minutes.

So it's true that you can use nothing but the yellow, but I bet that even LX would end up with a tennis elbow if the edge is really in need of restoration (with big nicks and burrs)

I agree with Bruno here.

There are various SRP members with unusual skills. Scott aka honedright can go a year without honing, and his stropping is so good that when he does hone he doesn't worry too much about edge tests beyond the thumbnail (if I remember correctly). For him stropping is the key to a sharp razor. LX has excellent technique on a small finishing stone, and manages to use it for almost everything. But someone else's tour-de-force doesn't become a training model for newbies. I have a friend who can walk on her hands, and while I admire her strength and balance and physical self-mastery, it isn't the best way for me to get to the corner store to buy a coke. There's a lot to be learned from LX and Scott's inspiring example. Learn from their mastery of specific techniques (stropping and x-ing on a small stone), rather than trying to replicate the bravura element of what they do. If the general advice on SRP were for newbs to get a tiny coticule and a strop and nothing else, and plan on honing only once a year and then only til the razor passes the thumbnail test and then just strop like hell from there, there would be very few members who would get past the newbie hump and become successful straight shavers.

It goes without saying that this is just my 2 cents.