Honing hard steel razors and russian razors

[RusenBG]

Hi guys i have a question for the old and experienced honers . I have some dificultys wih the very hard steel razors and especialy with the russian blades . usualy when i hone a razor , the edge gets fantastic , very sharp and very smooth .This is with most of Solingens and 90 % of the razors .
Still the russians straights make me mad as i cant get that fantastic edge on them watever i do on the stones .
Ive read some hide statements that there is a trick or something that is specifis to deal with those razors and the tuff steels , witch are hard to hone .
Please if you have experience , share it .

[Matheus]

Both my Klas Tornbloms are a PITA to hone because of its extreme hard steel. I manage to raise a perfect edge from both with solely my translucent arkansas, followed by CrO pasted paddle and, of course, LOTS of sweat. If there's a trick to hone these freaks faster, would be a pleasure to know. They are so strange that have a different feeling on the arkie, they slide on it without any drag and silent, as honing over pure polished glass.

[gssixgun]

I have found that the Swedes tend toward the hard side, haven't really honed many actual Russian razors but the few that i honed I treated the same as the Swedes..

Get them keen then I finish on my Chinese PHIG using a light slurry and never quite rinse to clear water..


The newer TI's are also and extremely hard steel and I use the same technique but a different finisher those I tend toward my Nakayama or the Naniwa SS 12k again with a light slurry diluting to not quite clear water

I think it is the slurry work that is holding back the harshness that these hard steels can exhibit, rather then the choice of stone.. I have zero proof of this it is just my feeling

[Geezer]

With Russian razors, make sure they are a hard temper..some were not. Any steel, carbon or stainless, needs to be sharp at 1K. Do the work there! It may take more pressure but do it there.
YMMV
~Richard

[RusenBG]

Well Richard i have shave with every each one of these razors , the problem isnt at the 1 K levell . the problem seems to be at the 12 K levell .
They just refuse to get an edge like my Henkels or like the Lark / i get second Lark today by the way /or like the Crown and Sword . they canot take the ultra fine edge without make it crisp and thin In other words a false edge as is thiner . Even then they are not making the same beautyfull edge as the Solingens .
I never have problem with my 2 Clas Tornbloms , they are hard but shaves like a dream and gets ultra fine edge as my Tiers Isard Le Gnome .
I guess is a some kind of steel , that canot make super edge or there is a catch .the north corean Kitty s are a close steel like the solviet , very hard and durable . Even cotis are having some time needed to get the job done .
On those razors i use synthetic progretion to 8 K as is fastar and a coti and thiry after .
But the thury did not improve dramaticaly the coti edge as usual , just a litle bit .
i dont know .
There is always a catch .

[thebigspendur]

I think the hardest razor I have ever honed (hard steel that is) was the TI Damascus. It literally laughed at the hone no matter which one I had used. I spent months on and off to get that thing shave ready. In the end my diamond pasted bench strop put the final shaving edge on it.

I have nightmares about that razor.

[Euclid440]

I assume the cause is micro-chipping on hard steel.

I have found, as Geezer said, getting to a straight edge early on helps with hard steel. I too, try to get the 1k edge, as chip free and straight as possible, jointing and re-setting the edge, a couple times if needed, to get as straight an edge as possible. Once the bevels are flat and straight, it does not take much to re-set a 1k edge, even with 4k.

For me the 1-4k edge makes a big difference on the back end, with hard steel razors. Finishing on hard Arks or lapping film gives great results as does the 12k and paste, haven’t tried my PHIG.

Also, a lot depends on the stones used early on, low grit or aggressive stones, like diamond plates with pressure, will cause micro-chipping. Some steel will have to be removed to get to good steel, that will not chip. When using low grits or diamonds for repairs, do not bring the bevels to meet, get the bevels are flat and close to meeting and bring to meet on a 1k.

[kratos86]

Consider that many russian razor were created for only to shaving so some maker not did quality tratments (there were strict conditions in Russia) hower i had 3 russian razor 1 is good quality razor(hard steel like sweedish razor, that have same steel,) 2 vary poor steel

[onimaru55]

Hard razors need an homogenous grain to not be chippy. A hard razor that is forged & heat treated correctly will always give glorious shaves eg Iwasaki westerns @ 65-66 HRC.
On the other hand, a razor that has missed the tempering bath & is just brittle may chip at any time, even at 8k.

The only Russian razor I honed was a stainless one & it shared the usual idiosyncrasies of that steel. Not that hard but tough & resistant to the stones. Tho it shaved quite well the edge was not pretty.

As has been said bevel set is VIP.

[Substance]

Just my thoughts if these steels are prone to microchipping,
Could using something like the micro bevel technique that has been mentioned that Tim Zowada (RC 62-65) amongst others have used sometimes, be beneficial to help the edge be a bit smoother??