Thread: Challenging the honing taboos

I've reached a stage in my honing where I'm beginning to try things, even the things which are accepted as sub-optimal in terms of technique. What I'm really looking for here is some practical and considered input from the honemeisters (and honemeisters-in-waiting of course ) for us noobs.

I'm now able to hone my straights to a point where they shave well. I've had repeated success here so I'm happy with my progress. I've never managed to have much success with HHT (even a Lynn-honed TI doesn't pass the HHT with my hair, but clearly it shaves extremely well!).

So until now I've been:

• honing one-handed
• using x-pattern
• using Norton 4k/8k combi stone
• used aggressive and conservative pyramids depending on edge
• always finish with a polishing on the coticule, about 20 passes, medium slurry density
• always taping the spine before honing (ever since I wore the spine on one of the Wapienicas I bought -- shocking how easy it was to wear it down!)

I found progress slow and frustrating at first. Quite often hit and miss using the technique above. Eventually I began to get better, but still felt I wasn't achieving. So then I started to experiment with interesting results.

Challenging accepted wisdom #1 - Only ever use one hand to hone, and use no pressure at all
I've always understood that good honing technique involves a one-handed approach. Mainly to ensure you don't put too much pressure on the edge. Essentially, you should use no more pressure than the weight of the straight itself.
But I got to thinking: the weight of the straight depends upon so many variables. Such as the size of the blade (a 3/8 has to be somewhat lighter than a full on meat-chopping 8/8 right?); such as the type of handle, from bakerlite to plastic to crusted mammoth ivory to denser New Zealand woods to solid carbon steel scales on Polish razors.
So does a very light touch of a second finger really make that much difference? I tried to use a two-handed approach because I felt it would massively improve the evenness of contact between blade and stone (especially the much narrower coticule). I was very careful to ensure I used negligible pressure with my second hand -- literally enough to 'feel' the blade was in contact with the stone. And incredibly slight forward force (i.e. from spine to edge) to help the blade move along the stone.
And for the Wapienica requiring bevel-work? I used some pressure. OK, so I don't own a 1k Norton and resorted to a 4k to establish the bevel, but I felt that some pressure might get the job done efficiently. It worked pretty well.

Challenging accepted wisdom #2 - Use an X-pattern
On my coticule this is unavaoidable due to it being narrow. But I got to thinking why do that on the Norton? The blade fits across the whole stone. So I have been honing without X on Nortons, but with X on coticule. And no X on the (wide TM) strop. I can't say I've noticed a difference on the blade.

Challenging accepted wisdom #3 - Never back-hone unless you're resolving a wire edge
OK, I haven't challenged this one because it just doesn't feel right to me. But on another recent thread (here) Kees posted this video link which shows a supposedly experienced German guy honing two-handed and back honing at the same time (my assumption here is the video is instruction on how one hones in general rather than how one hones out a wire edge). This video seemed as wrong to me as the Youtube spoof of someone honing on a brick (OK, exaggeration, but you get it).
But it got me thinking that maybe these taboos and rules are clearly there to help guide us, but are they accessible to someone who knows what they're doing?

The only analogy I can use is learning how to drive. Here in the UK every driving instructor who is teaching a learner will impart a golden rule: do NOT cross over your hands/arms on the steering wheel when turning a corner or tight bend. In the UK you can fail your test if you do. It is considered dangerous since you are likely to have less control than the classic clock position of "ten minutes to two".

However, there is a higher level of driving one can attain called "advanced driver". This also requires a driving test, but is for drivers of some experience. It is optional and the only material benefit appears to be to reduce one's insurance premiums. Now, in the advanced driver's lessons the instructors tell you to cross your hands when turning a tight corner, i.e. the opposite of accepted wisdom for beginners. It's seen as more efficient and, to an experienced driver, does not compromise control of the vehicle.

In other words it's a technique frowned upon for beginners, but may have a valid use for the more experienced.

So, does it apply to honing techniques?

(Although I feel my honing improved with the two tweaks above, I don't want to go down a path which leads to bad technique for the sake of a short-term gain. Any input from experienced honers much apreciated!)

I've certainly not mastered honing. I agree with you on using the second hand. I find I have more control of the pressure with the second hand because I'm not as worried about keeping contact with the stone. An extra hand doesn't necessarily mean more pressure (at least for me), you just have to control it the way you would with one hand. I also find that using two hands allows me to minimize the amount I have to extend my arms which makes for more stability (I hone standing). I can kind of "lock" my arms and just "rock" back and forth to move the blade.

There are very good honers that use two hands and use different strokes than the X pattern as well.

Jordan

majurey,

Put me in the "honemeister in waiting" category--I still have a few thousand razors to go before I'm at that point.

You make some good points. First let me jump in and say that a lot of the "accepted wisdom" you're describing is advice aimed at newbies who are just learning to hone and who are starting with a razor that's pretty close to being shave-ready.

The one-hand, no-pressure guideline works best when you're honing a razor that already has a good bevel. This keeps you from dulling the edge with a heavy-handed stroke. If the edge is really dull, though, you're going to be honing for a long, long, long time. In this situation, some pressure is needed to reestablish the bevel. Two hands on the razor is sometimes the easiest way to accomplish this.

Once you have the two sides of the bevel meeting to form a nice, fresh edge, then you ease back on the pressure during the pyramid, until the last strokes are just light enough to keep the blade flat on the hone.

As for the X-pattern, it's not always necessary if you have a 3" wide hone and a razor with a very straight edge. You can go straight across the hone with the heel leading and get good results. However, if there's any curve to the blade at all, you won't be able to get it uniformly sharp all along it's length without doing some kind of X or rolling hone type stroke. (Many razors have toes and heels that curve slightly back before the edge ends; you won't be able to get these toes or heels sharp by going straight across the hone.) Also, if there's a slight warp to the blade, going straight across will leave you pretty frustrated.

It's good to see you thinking analytically about your honing--that's the best way to improve. Once you know the reasons for the "rules," you'll know how and when they can be effectively broken.

Keep at it,
Josh

Jordan,

For a long time, I honed standing up, too. I found sitting down like Lynn does in his video let me see what I was doing a lot better. Plus you can raise your elbow up, which makes a nice, even stroke much easier to do. My honing improved a lot when I copied Lynn's posture.

Just a thought.

Josh

Thanks guys, this is what I'm looking to hear. And with two replies I've already picked up a tip: X pattern on the Nortons are not de rigeur, but what I have been doing recently needs to be refined. I was going striaght down the hone with the blade perpedicular. Josh recommends heel leading toe. That makes sense to me in an intuitive sort of way.

Keep 'em coming guys. Oh, and any comments on that video (item 3)? Ich weiss nicht!

Not so long ago I overhoned my Friodur. Backhoning did not do the job, a coarser hone neither. What really did the trick is stropping it a couple of strokes with the spine lifted a few millimeters (about 1/8") off the leather followed by 10-20 passes on an Escher.

Stropping with the spine off the leather also works well on a razor that needs honing again (adds one or two shaves worth to the bevel).

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Jordan,

For a long time, I honed standing up, too. I found sitting down like Lynn does in his video let me see what I was doing a lot better. Plus you can raise your elbow up, which makes a nice, even stroke much easier to do. My honing improved a lot when I copied Lynn's posture.

Just a thought.

Josh

Yup, I wanted to try that, but unfortunately, I don't really have a set up to put the hone at the right height for my arm to move correctly - coffee table is too low, dining room table is too high, etc.

I modeled my current technique after what Bill Ellis did on his CD and its working reasonably well for me at this point. I should say that Bill mentions in the video that he often hones while watching TV, so he may sit sometimes as well.

This is good info and I'm interested in reading more about how others work.

Jordan

1. One handed honing and ambidexterous shaving are both un-natural to start with but each can be learned with sufficent practice. I agree that using only one hand to hone on a coarse piece of sandpaper can be a challange and that maintaining a uniform pressure is also difficult but it can be done. This is not to say that that usng two hands is wrong. The difficulty that I encountered with it was maintaining a constant pressure during the stroke. I suppose that with sufficent practice it can be done. Just learn one way and learn it well.

2. The X pattern is a stroke that will work with the most razors, that is it's advantage. The straight across stroke is fine if your edge is straight but if your edge has any sort of a "smile" to it or the least bit of warping then the X pattern stroke is mandatory. Either that or you have to compensate with Xmans rolling stroke. Using the X pattern does have its drawback. It results in uneven wear that must be compensated for at some time. The Barbers manual in the help files tells how to do this.

3. Back honing has always been controversial. Simply regard it as a tool in your tool box. Experiment with it and you will find its uses. Its general use has been to remove a wire edge but it does not always work. It really depends upon how severly overhoned the edge is. Use the least aggressive method possible to resolve any issue.

4.The Pyramid system is not the be all/end all of hoing. It is simply a structured approach to honing for new guys that will get their edge shaving sharp eventually.
Eventually most of us change to different methods that work faster. What allows us to do that is we learn what to look for in an edge at various stages of honing.

5. Pressure is a real tough thing to describe to someone else. Usually I say to use 1-2 lbs of pressure. Whenever I do then I can just imagine their response! WTF &^%%$#@!** is 1-2 lbs of pressure!

Pressure is necessary when using the 1K, we are removing steel! But we do not want to bend the edge in the process. I also use pressure on the 4K for the first 25 laps but always finish using only the amount of pressure necessary to keep the razor flat on the hone. On the 8K I will occasionally use a bit of pressure initially depending upon the feel.

6. Torque. We say to keep the blade flat on the hone. Both the spine and the edge with an even amount of pressure on both. Wel... on some blades that just does not work. Occasionall I will apply some torque, that is I will have ever so slightly more pressure on the edge then I do on the spine. If that does not work then I know that I have a poorly developed bevel or a warping of the blade or edge.

7. Finishing... there are many tools that can be used to finish an edge. What is boils down to is what you like in an edge. Try as many as you can.

8. Someone once compared a razor to a woman. I really do agree and suggest that you try as many as possible!

Have fun!

I think your doing great with your thoughts. All good comments here. Your accepted wisdoms include a few bad assumptions. I don't really have anything important to add except that doing an x pattern, regardless of when or why is still doing an x pattern. You can correct all kinds of ineffective straight honing with a few passes with an x pattern. The most effective use of an x is with high grit to achieve maximum sharpness, which is exactly what your doing. Well, thats what I think anyway. Don't make it an accepted wisdom though.

I don't want to disagree with Randy but I don't think back honing is controversial. A few people don't like it, but that doesn't make it controversial, merely that some people don't like it. It is a documented form of honing, that in itself makes it more important than any controversy, and besides, as you've noted, it works. You can always rely on what works just as well as anything else.

Don't rely too much on watching someone hone. That isn't very helpful. You have no idea what he is doing, feeling, or whatever. In the video your describing I'm certain the words that would go along with it, given any interest in talking while "honing" would be:

"Now I am making a bevel on this razor, clearly only an idiot would try and sharpen a razor like this, but again, I'm only making a bevel and sharpness is unimportant, some poor sap will buy this thing and think it should be able to shave and be "razor" sharp. What an idiot! I have to create a bevel on 30 more razors like this today then I can finally go home to the madam of the house"

Howdy,

I'm not sure there really are any taboos other than those activities that do cause uneven pressure, too much pressure or an uneven stroke when honing.

Most of the recommended techniques really are aimed at helping new people get successful as soon as possible. It is all a learning process and I still learn new things every day.

Taping for the most part is unecessary unless you have a damaged edge to repair or are protecting a damascus like finish on the spine. Wapienica razors typically are super easy to hone up with just a few strokes, so flattening of the spine would indicate way too many strokes. This is not bad though as these are great razors to learn on and for the cost you have a great razor to start on that will take a great edge, yet can definitely be replaced without breaking either your heart or pocket book.

I really like the striation and cutting edge that I get from the X pattern, but there are a lot of people who simply hone straight down a 3 inch stone.

Backhoning is another approach and obviously works well with pastes on flatbed leather hones and pasted strops. I simply find a couple regular 1-3's will usually solve an over honed razor. Every razor is a new challenge and the more alternative techniques you have the more successful you will be. You will also become more successful the more you successfully hone razors. This may sound a little silly, but practice does help a lot. You don't have to hone thousands of razors to get a razor sharp, but there are different degrees of sharp as well.

Still not a HHT fan as shaving tells me what I need to know when honing. Nuff said. Others rely on it and thumbnail tests, etc.

If you feel comfy with two hands, then that will work for you. Nothing written in granite. What you are looking for is a nice fluid stroke where the blade remains flat on the stone throughout the stroke. This stroke is developed. It doesn't just happen, even for people who have done a lot of knife sharpening. The razors edge is delicate and any additional pressure or uneveness thoughout the stroke will show in the results.

I still feel that less strokes are better. The more strokes, the more wear.

Every razor is different. We are all different with different levels of tactile ability, touch and feel. We should always be open to new techniques and sharpening media.

The main thing is to enjoy honing and enjoy straight razor shaving. If you find it getting frustrated, don'e stay at it for hours. Come back to it after a rest and enjoy the great art that you have learned and are learning.

Lynn