Thread: what does a coticule edge feel like

Originally Posted by UKRob

Given that they are all in excess of 70 million years old - or 700 hundred million depending on which book you read, the fact that you can discern a difference in 15 years is incredible.

Regardless of how old the stones are, the question is whether the quality of the material in the veins of coticule declines as the mine is depleted. The good stuff being long since harvested.

In the 1970s I used to read that sort of thing in articles in knife & gun magazines referring to Arkansas stones, saying they were 'mined out.' Matter of fact there was a new run of Lilly White Washita stones by Norton Abrasives some 7 or 8 years ago. Guys on forums who had used the vintage Lilly Whites claimed they weren't as good.

OTOH, I suppose it could be argued that the quality might improve as you got to the end of the usefulness of the mine.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Regardless of how old the stones are, the question is whether the quality of the material in the veins of coticule declines as the mine is depleted. The good stuff being long since harvested.

In the 1970s I used to read that sort of thing in articles in knife & gun magazines referring to Arkansas stones, saying they were 'mined out.' Matter of fact there was a new run of Lilly White Washita stones by Norton Abrasives some 7 or 8 years ago. Guys on forums who had used the vintage Lilly Whites claimed they weren't as good.

OTOH, I suppose it could be argued that the quality might improve as you got to the end of the usefulness of the mine.

When I read this the thing that sticks out the most is "usefulness". And a close second is that the vintage ones were better.

Mines or quarries are run as a business. I have read many times that they know that there is a higher quality material deeper etc. but it is to costly to get and you make more money with the easier to obtain lesser quality ore etc.

We remember the best things of the past and tend to ignore the problems. It is human nature.......

Not to mention the Romans that 'took' a lot of good Coticule stones, muahaha

Anyways, I'm honing a couple of razors (2) on different coticules atm, and I will hone those two razors solely on 4 to 5 different coticules to see what their differences are.
3 of those Cotis are cotis that were sold a while ago, so I'll call those vintage cotis (no idea of the veins, probably veinettes and a la grise). 2 others are modern bought la veinettes. These rocks all date back to the same period millions of years ago so they're really all vintage. I wonder what difference it will make.
All of these coti's are natural combos, except for one of the modern ones.
Since I've been mainly only using Thuringen stones in the past; I find for daily shaving I might benefit from something a little less sharp and smoother

A little off topic; I prefer to hone on narrower hones and not too long either, I'm not saying it's cheap, but when I compare the prices to the big cotis that are being sold, I'm glad I have this preference.

Your question of 'what does a coti edge feel like' is really hard to answer. I think the parameters of coti edges are similar to those of straight razors, namely, the possibilities range from sublime to god awful. But if you'd like to get one, and are a patient yet practical man, you're in for a lot of fun.
Go read up on - http://www.coticule.be

As to 'old or new' I can't say just yet. I have 14 vintage and one new, and I've never really got an edge I was happy with off the new one, which is a regret of mine cause it's a really nice size and good looking stone.
And the two best ever razor edges I experienced were off a fellow member's vintage coti.

I have a really course or thick beard. It took me quite a while to be able to get the keenness from a coti edge to shave it easily. I recently introduced a friend to straight shaving. I was staying at his house for a couple of days and he asked me to shave him so he could see what it was like, so I did and was so surprised at how different his beard was to mine. It was basically like a kid's, it just fell off as I shaved. And he didn't have much regrowth until a week later. I was kind of envious at how easily his was to shave, and a real eye opener too at why some people think different edges, etc are ok.

Well, I have honed a on 3 different coticules now, they all provided great smooth shaves.
One seemed a little smoother than the other, but they all felt skin friendly and very much alike, although I was able to discern a difference in smoothness, a small difference, but noticeable.
(I can definitely see a certain preference for certain veins in that regard)

All shaves were great, some felt 'sharper' others felt 'smoother', all were friendly on the skin.
Also, all were sharp enough to shave well without any sort of tugging whatsoever. Very pleasant shaves.

It didn't feel as sharp as a thuringer edge, but it was more skin friendly.

It's been a long time since I saw the "Branded" intro, but when I watched it just now my immediate thought after he picked up the broken saber was...

"Hey, I can re-grind that point and make a perfectly good tanto!"

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I'm told the more recent Coticules are inferior to the older ones and even those came in grades so it depends whether you have an OK one or a good one or a very good one or an excellent one.

The one I have is probably about 15 years old and when I got it that Coticule was my best stone and I used it as a finisher and I got great edges from it. Of course when I got my Escher the edges were better but the Coticule was darn good for shaving.

I'll preface my statements by saying that I haven't tried one of the more recent coticules from the "new" mine, and I won't because of similar statements that I've been told ... and by people who know. As far as being only fifteen years or so different in age, I cannot answer that, but I do know that many different layers, with many different attributes came out of the Old Preu mine. I've got two La Veinnettes from the old mine, about ten years ago, that will rival the edge of any other stone, of any ilk, that I've got here. But these are all natural stones. I've got Old Rock, Deep Rock, Salm, Oozuko, Shoubudani, Nakayama, Escher, SRD... These two LV's will hold their own with any of them.

I've yet to hear of anything great from the new location .. That does not mean there won't be, but I'm standing pat!

Edit... I'm itching to try a Gokumyo 20K edge though...

Originally Posted by Druid

I'll preface my statements by saying that I haven't tried one of the more recent coticules from the "new" mine, and I won't because of similar statements that I've been told ... and by people who know. As far as being only fifteen years or so different in age, I cannot answer that, but I do know that many different layers, with many different attributes came out of the Old Preu mine. I've got two La Veinnettes from the old mine, about ten years ago, that will rival the edge of any other stone, of any ilk, that I've got here. But these are all natural stones. I've got Old Rock, Deep Rock, Salm, Oozuko, Shoubudani, Nakayama, Escher, SRD... These two LV's will hold their own with any of them.

I've yet to hear of anything great from the new location .. That does not mean there won't be, but I'm standing pat!

Edit... I'm itching to try a Gokumyo 20K edge though...

My G20K stone should arrive any day now. I would be glad to hone a razor for you, if you wish to send me one?

Joe

Old new does not really matter. Person honing and layer of rock makes a difference, but you can get an awesome shave with any coticule with the right time and patience. Each layer and stone is just different and time spent on the rock makes a lot of difference. Even mixing and matching the slurry stone can make a difference. Some are slow some are fast. My guess is the problems arise with the slower stones more often. Also I think some guys have problems with the faster stones because of slurry dulling. It takes time and patience I find a coticule to not be a quick method unless just touching up. That being said I started with only coticule. I started with vintage natural combo then another then a new stone from the mine Les Lat which is really nice then a La Verte from the mine which is also really nice, but much slower yet great for finishing even on a light slurry. I Even have some glued vintage which are very fast and I tend to set bevels on. Fast is a relative term here only in comparison to other coticules. Taking an old wedge off ebay and fixing it removing chips setting bevel and finishing can take a day or more.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. A coticule edge done right may feel different to different people based on skin type and hair type. For me and alot of others it feels like a warm butter knife wiping the hair off your face with little to no irritation.

I have sensitive skin and my hair is not the thickest.

Originally Posted by prodigy

I had a wade and butcher the celebrated for barbers use honed for me by glen. I've owned several coticules and experience the same tug and pull with every razor ive put to every coti I've owned. Same razors touched up on a jnat or thuri yield excellent results. I didn't want to drag Glens name or reputation into this, but to say that a coti can provide every person with a tug free shave just is not true. Now the shaves were smooth and close and comfortable, just needed extra care to take short strokes with extra focus on skin stretching.

Then it might be due to your honing technique with your coti's. Using my coti's and bbw's (none are vintage BTW) I am able to put on an edge every but as sharp and tug free as those from any synthetic or JNAT.