Thread: Dragons Tongue

Agreed, I've only had to do that to the Norton 4K. I don't think I've ever heard of it being applied to another type of hone.

“I think AJ's numbers are a bit high, DT 6k, Purple 7-10k(maybe), Dark 10k+”

“The best I can say is Norton = DT < Purple slate = PHIG < Black slate. This is evidenced both by the feel of the edges on my face, and pictures of the stria taken at 200x magnification. Pictures can be found here:”


Ok, so if you want to grit rate “YOUR” stone, hone a razor on a synthetic stone of known grit, a quality synthetic, 8 or 12K, mark the edge with a line in the middle of the blade on both sides. Now hone the razor toe half, by keeping the halfway mark at the edge of the stone, so you are only honing half the blade.

Now compare the stria from each stone side by side until you find a grit that matches the known grit stone. Now you know what your stone is the grit equivalent of. And says nothing of any other stones of the type just that is what your particular example is.

Some natural stones can produce different grit from side to side.

Very few natural stones are close to 8k, fewer over 10k. The Welch slates I have tested are between the 4 & 8k grit range and nowhere as uniform in grit as vintage slates.

And that is the difference between the Welch stones and a quality vintage slates; uniform grit, high grit range, uniform release of grit or not and friability.

It is not just about the grit size, but grit size is important and often mis-represented and promoted by vendors and or lack of proper comparison. One cannot just pull a number out of air or say it feels like…

The photos are nice, but have to be compared to known grit, with the same razor and with the same preparation, preferably.

First attempt at honing the vintage TRC tonight, working on the DT first then progressing to the PHIG. Fail. No harm done to the razor, no irregular wear or scratching etc. but nowhere near shave ready. I kept finding it would feel keen and I would move to the finishing stone, only to lose the edge. This was the general pattern. Also I don't seem to be getting an edge developing evenly from heel to nose. I was careful to not bear down on the blade but I am not sure if I am using too much or too little water, I can see this is going to be a true case of trial and error. Back to the video tutorials!!

You might need to find a stone in between the DT and the PHIG, on my versions of those stones I couldn't go from DT to PHIG I need a Norton 8k or equivalent in between

Originally Posted by TomP30

First attempt at honing the vintage TRC tonight, working on the DT first then progressing to the PHIG. Fail. No harm done to the razor, no irregular wear or scratching etc. but nowhere near shave ready. I kept finding it would feel keen and I would move to the finishing stone, only to lose the edge. This was the general pattern. Also I don't seem to be getting an edge developing evenly from heel to nose. I was careful to not bear down on the blade but I am not sure if I am using too much or too little water, I can see this is going to be a true case of trial and error. Back to the video tutorials!!

There are 2 scenarios I can see where he would be losing the edge - either his PHIG isnt as fine as his DT (I doubt this) or - more likely, his bevel isn't set and he needs more time with a heavy, muddy slurry on the DT if not some time on a good 1K hone.

Originally Posted by Marshal

There are 2 scenarios I can see where he would be losing the edge - either his PHIG isnt as fine as his DT (I doubt this) or - more likely, his bevel isn't set and he needs more time with a heavy, muddy slurry on the DT if not some time on a good 1K hone.

AJ reckons his DT to be 8-10k (with slurry), I am not going to comment but it is harder-smoother than anticipated, particularly after lapping on some 400 wet-dry (pencil grid showed up some inconsistencies). It does slurry well and when slurried I noticed the edge began to glue itself to the stone.

I have just watched Lynn's tutorial - One Stone Honing On a Coticule ( I love Lynn's videos, they're like visiting your favourite uncle), I don't have a Coticule but I thought I'd use this approach with the DT, and I'm not unimpressed with the results. My Cadman Bengall certainly feels keener and is popping a few hairs off the leg. I know it is a different type of stone altogether, but what is the difference between the Belgian Coticule and a Welsh slate, is it quicker to cut metal for instance?

Originally Posted by TomP30

I have just watched Lynn's tutorial - One Stone Honing On a Coticule ( I love Lynn's videos, they're like visiting your favourite uncle), I don't have a Coticule but I thought I'd use this approach with the DT, and I'm not unimpressed with the results. My Cadman Bengall certainly feels keener and is popping a few hairs off the leg. I know it is a different type of stone altogether, but what is the difference between the Belgian Coticule and a Welsh slate, is it quicker to cut metal for instance?

This explains (with visual) what I was talking about when I mentioned needing a heavier slurry. The slurry Lynn builds up on his coticule is about the same thickness as I build on the dragon's tongue. The difference is the coticule cuts with garnet, which is a much harder than the cutting material of a dragon's tongue - and faster. Coticules also 'auto slurry' which means they release cutting material much more easily. If you were good with a 1K stone, you could follow Lynn's process on a single coticule and have a shave ready razor. A coticule can be used as a finisher (and as you saw, everything between bevel set and finishing). I don't know if he same can be said for a dragon's tongue.

Either way, it's the same concept with slurry. Building up that 'mud' releases cutting particles and suspends them in the water. Thicker slurry cuts faster, and as a result isn't as sharp/fine. Thinning it out allows you to 'work up' the grit scale to a finer polish. This is also why I keep one side of my Dragon's tongue very finely polished, and one side rougher for slurry work. Rougher surface cuts faster, with slurry all the more rapidly. Polished surface cuts slower, but leaves a finer polish. Especially if used with a bit of shave lather.

To do what Lynn did with a Welsh slate I imagine would take a bit longer. I usually spend more than ~8 minutes on mine. Probably more like 16, but my dilution on the dragon's tongue is more gradual than Lynn's on the coticule. I have 6 or 8 phases to his 3. The honing style I use is also more akin to this fellow*. It's a bit different, so you may want to try this and see how it compares to circles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAcs...ature=youtu.be

The difference is circles are quick, but very short strokes. Gary's method is also fairly quick, but the strokes are longer. Longer strokes = more metal removed per stroke = sharper blade faster when using something slow, like a Welsh Slate or a PHIG. That is my current theory at any rate. At the end of the day, what matters is what works best with your hones, razor(s), and the hands that operate them.

* Link courtesy of Steel, found here.

So am I on the right track by thinking that, to a point, the DT will do what a Coticule will do but it will take longer and may not produce such a smooth edge?