Coticule sharpness and why not every coticule is a razor finisher.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Tell you one more thing that I recently experienced re, coticules. In another thread, about DMTs here, Kaptain_Zero, referring to coticules particularly, said, "I feel that those sharp diamond tips might shatter/damage any protruding garnets and thus ruin the smoothness of the hone."

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

Well after reading what K_Z said I took too 5 & 1/2 x2 & 1/2" coticules that I've NEVER been able to do anything with ..... and not for lack of trying. These are old Belgian naturals with 'made in Belgium' stamped on the sides. Old pro barber stones.

Ones that I posted about that I didn't know if it was 'me, or the hones.' Well, I drew a pencil grid on both, rubbed one against the other (under the tap running water) and flattened them.

Honed razors on each and got real good edges off of them for the first time. :beer1:

Attachment 245957Attachment 245958

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Yes it is pretty well known fact among coticule users that the diamond s fracture the garnets and lead to faster cutting but a more damaged edge.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I have not found a coticule that didn't give me a comfortable shave. I'm sure they exist, but I do tend to believe they are not as common as some tend to believe. With experience, I am finding it more straightforward to get a decent to good edge off most every coticule I try. The fine-tuning takes time, though, but makes up much of the fun in coticule honing.

I believe the lather, prep and varying skin conditions have much more of an effect on shaving comfort than the feel of the edge (given that the edge is sharp/keen enough to shave).

Personally, I would amend your heading and say that not every coticule is a finisher for everyone. But that was pretty much what I got from your initial post, anyway.

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Pieter, I am not saying you can't shave off every coticule and I am not saying the shaves you can achieve are not comfortable. I am saying picking a coticule at random and expecting 10k plus edge is unreasonable because most top out much lower than that. Very fine finishers do exist but are most people going to put the time and money in to find one? No they will stick with what they've got and shave off it even if it is not the best that edge could be. How are they to know any different if they have only tried a few coticules, they might think its the best thing since sliced bread and that my friend is the common goal to find a stone that you are truly happy with. A very comfortable forgiving edge is easily obtained with a coticule but that sharpness is not what a high grit synthetic can provide and the edge resistance can mostly be felt. This is why such tricks like unicot were invented. To bypass the keenness limit of mediocre coticules. It can be used with any coticule but helps those that max out keenness lower then ideal.

I have shaved of coticule and had a mediocre shave and off another the best shave in the world. The point I am trying to get through to new guys is not every coticule is an ideal razor finishing stone.

Do you know how many times I get messged or even in posts where members struggle to get that final edge. The first thing we tell them is to use a misty slurry and more half laps, strop it etc. The whole point is the coticule is struggling to finish the edge so if you are coming to the finishing stage and water only laps aren't doing it.. There's a problem and that can be dissected as well doing a one stone honing. Of course it works but is a lot harder then using up to ~5k and synthetics and using water only the coticule. Slurry creates damage to the edge. Water only laps should be used for finishing for the best possible edge. I even think Dr Matt would agree with me on that one.

What I don't like is guys being misinformed. Coticules are wonderful stones I have spent hundreds of hours learning and this is my experience with them. Not all are razor finishers... Simply put. Are all jnats finishers? No why on earth would all coticules be. They are natural and vary and that's what makes them so intriguing. The search for that magical edge only given when a certain ritual is used. So go and have fun and you will figure out what works and what doesn't. Just don't beat yourself up if you've tried everything and nothing is working. You got a sub par coticule. They are more prevalent then most dedicated users would like to believe.

Food for thought

Yes, the performance variability of naturals is probably their biggest drawback.

Yet, in that variability, especially with coti s, is the source of continuing interest. I now have 3 natural combos and 1 modern glue up. The way the blue and yellow touch is something that I consider to be absolutely fascinating and individual as fingerprints.

When I get a great shave off one of these it is somehow more satisfying. I will admit that this very week I reached for the Nani12k to get a new old one ready for 1st shave. I guess I enjoy diversity in honing options.

It is certain that honing offers us the best of all worlds- on one hand the benefit of tribal knowledge, advice and proven techniques -on the other hand the essentially endless opportunity to experiment and satisfy curiosity.

I have a nice La Grise rectangular and a La Dressante bout. On some of my razors I can put a remarkable edge, on others, not so remarkable... Not all blades are the same. Should we expect one stone to provide a great edge on every blade? Many of the professional honers here use different stones for different razor makes...

Well said guys!
My 1¢,
I have honed with man made and natural stones. Each of them; when understood, meaning used and knowing how each stone behaves, will give a fairly good to outstanding shave.
That said, My go to at the shave corner is a natural stone because it does not need soaking. A good Coticule and a Medium Thuringer don't take up much room.
Don't get me wrong, I do like to play with stones. A man-made set or a couple naturals at the bench works well for me.
Just don't believe the first honing you do on a natural is going to be as nice as one a year of renewing razors on that stone a year later.

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Originally Posted by cau

I have a nice La Grise rectangular and a La Dressante bout. On some of my razors I can put a remarkable edge, on others, not so remarkable... Not all blades are the same. Should we expect one stone to provide a great edge on every blade? Many of the professional honers here use different stones for different razor makes...

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To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

I agree with most of what has been said here.. Not all coticules are "razor grade." I've used quite a few before arriving at my favorites, and two of them will rival the edges off any natural stone .. However, they are both capable of providing edges that are a bit to crispy for me, hence, I most often finish with them on misty slurry, to ease that. That said, most coticules are capable of a shavable edge, I've found. That runs counter to what has been written on many outposts on the internet pertaining to these stones, but, science without proper scientific protocol is merely pseudoscience!
I often said that if I didn't have coticules to finish on, I would be and Escher/Thuringian user .. They too provide a nice edge for me. JNats , again can produce a crisp edge for my face... So, I always come back to my favored coticules .. Not because I want the keenest edge, but because I want that combination of keen and smooth, and coticules provide that ... for me.
All this is highly personal. depending on many factors, but a very wise friend once told me this ... "Often, we're chasing the wrong side of sharp!"

Very true!

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Originally Posted by Badgister

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

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I agree with you we should expect one stone to provide a great edge on any blade.

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Originally Posted by Badgister

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

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I tend to agree, but in spite of that, I do have a few blades that seem to just perform better off certain stones. Of course, it could be my imagination, the phase of the moon, or the incantations I say over specific stones!

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Originally Posted by Badgister

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

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Interesting. I have two blades that I have not been able to get to my liking on either of my coticules. No geometry issues with either. I believe they just have harder steel. I can shave with them, but I'm not happy with them. Perhaps they need more time on the hones than I've given them. Perhaps I need more experience...

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Originally Posted by Badgister

To answer your question, yes. I don't subscribe to the theory of hone and razor pairing. A "Honemelier" of course would beg to differ.

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I think 99 out 100 you're right. I have a TI Silverwing that only takes a keen edge with my Rouge de Salm hone. The RdS is my softest hone and Silverwings are usually very hard steel IIRC. Soft hone for harde steel and v.v.