Thread: Honewear on omote side of kamisori causing increased resistance.

I set the bevel of my Tosuke today. A considerable amount of metal had to be removed. In the proces a quite wide shoulder appeared on the omote side that sucks itself against the hone. As recommended by Jim Rion (who used to post on SRP a lot) I use a 7:1 ratio when honing a kamisori. 7 roundtrips with the omote side down to one roundtrip with the ura side down and so on.
Any thoughts on how to solve this problem?

Use Smith's honing solution.

Just shave with it.

In my experience oil clogs up the pores of the hone.

To avoid suction you can slow down your lapping moves.

Or you reshape the hollow grinding with a Dremel or anything like that.

Nasty stuff you got going on there.

the 7:1 ratio is not justifjed ... a 3/1 would be more realistic.

For kamisory razors a flat hone is even more important then for the western grinds.
So if you are certain your hones are flat then check if you have an edge all the way...

Use a dremmel to take away the excess metal but only if your hones are flat oterwise you can ruine the geometry even more.

It seems to me you made eliptical motions with more weight on the towards stroke and your stone is dished in the middle.

Hope it helps... also always use saphire marker when setting the bevel...i have a feeling this could have been prevented if you were aware your bevel is not getting honed allover on the first strokes.

The ideea is to remove the minimum amount of metal to get a new edge and flat bevels....if you need to remove that mutch..then you're dooing somting wrong or the geometry is off.

Check all the hones in your pr0gression for flatness...but especialy the bevel setter!

Also i need to ask...did you go toe first on the hone when making the circles?

Oh wow ! you can never put that metal back

The razor was worn or you used too much pressure & judging by the wear pattern the razor may be warped. Hard to tell from pics.

Just a fyi . A warped kamisori cann often be bent back to straight as the majority of metal is soft iron.

Yoiu can cosmetically re grind the hollow but the razor will always tend to large bevels as you rehone.

I doubt the sticktion will go away with any means. You are grinding a very smooth surface with large surface area (the razor) against another very smooth surface (the stone) with water between. The capillary action will tend to keep the two stuck to each other making even uniform strokes hard to consistently achieve.

Are you feeling the razor slip and then get "stuck" as you hone, like as if the hone was uneven?

As you can see the honewear on the shoulder is most pronounced toward the heel and the honewear on the cutting edge most towards the toe end of the blade.
The bevel marking test stripes tell you were the cutting edge needed some work. I did put a little pressure on the heel end of the blade when honing.
Unfortunately kamisori blades are made with two different steel types. The shoulder being made of the softer steel. So the shoulder will wear more quickly.
The Oozuku is really flat, I take the blade up and down the hone in a straight line. No circles, X-patterns etc.
Occasionally I get the slip and stick phenomenon.

It gives great shaves now so I am reluctant to do anything about the shape and geometry of the blade, I am gonna enjoy it as it is. Next time I do some work on the edge of a kamisori I will do a 1:1 ratio instead of 1:7 until the edge is sharp along its entire length. Only in the end will I revert to 1:7.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

Nasty stuff you got going on there.

the 7:1 ratio is not justifjed ... a 3/1 would be more realistic.

You're right: JimR recommends 3:1 on Tosukes, but others recommend different ratios. Lynn e.g. gets good results with 10:1

Originally Posted by JimR

Well, I guess if you watch the video then you know how I hone my razors.

Mizuochi's recommendation is I believe 7/2, Tosuke is 3/1 and the barbers I've asked are roughly 10/1. I say roughly, because the 1 stroke on the Ura is more of an afterthought.

I think the main thing is, the majority of honing in ALL of the systems is done on the non-stamped/omote side.

Originally Posted by Lynn

The 10 to 1 ratio given in that thread is a winner. I have honed quite a few Japanese razors lately including a couple that were pretty beat up and every one ended up chasing the whiskers away. As with anything else, you certainly can experiment with the back and forth strokes and even circles for that matter or different ratios.

Have fun,

Lynn

Qoutes were taken from:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...my-barber.html

http://straightrazorpalace.com/inter...tml#post479927

The most important aspect of honing a Kamisori is the "Pressure Shift" it is obvious from the wear that you are applying pressure on the whole razor and NOT just the edge..
You cannot "Torque" a Kamisori as you would a Western razor so you have to use your Fingers and Thumbs to shift pressure, this will avoid the results you got..

If you watch this vid I explain it and demonstrate it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNCVe3Alye8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIQ3_6Cs5o

This is a newer vid on correcting a problem Kamisori you might find some ideas in there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m87oGTAKV7I

Ratios are dependent on the steel and your technique, Personally I use a variable ratio almost all the time now, as I find it works on the most razors, you can always adjust that to your razor after you get it dialed..


Re-grinds on a Kamisori are tricky, but the idea of using a Dremel makes me cringe..
Depending on the steel and even whether it was actually made with two types,, an actual Belt Grinder or perhaps a Sen would be the way to approach it if you are going to attempt it

If I were in your shoes in the EU I would touch base with Jenes and show him a pic and see if he thinks he can pull the one back to straight and clean


Hope that helps