Strange the OP has been on the site earlier today but has not responded today to any of the advice.
Bob
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Strange the OP has been on the site earlier today but has not responded today to any of the advice.
Bob
guci31,
Sometimes, well almost always, the old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" is true. Here's a video by gssixgun helping a new honer. It's a picture of what almost, well most likely all of us, have to learn to become proficient honers.
Edit: I'd definitely take (gssixgun) Glen's offer, but learn from this video to maintain the razor afterwards.
:gl:
Regards,
Howard :)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vxrs5kFkmJg
ouch! Some serious hone wear on that razor. I've been straight razor shaving and honing for just over a year. I never sent out a single razor to be professionally honed. Purchased a 1k king, and a used 4/8 Norton as my finisher. However, I watched countless hours of youtube videos, and refer to this site daily for guidance.
All razor I purchase are old vintage blades with little wear, or only some light restoration needed. If I saw this razor at an Antique shop or the 'Bay, I'd pass on it - looks wrecked. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU TAKE UP GSSIXGUN ON HIS OFFER! Holy crap that is generous!
After one year of honing close to two dozen razors, I'm now able to get very close comfortable shaves off my Norton combo. So with PATIENCE AND PRACTICE, you'll get there. Just take your time. Remember, you can always remove steel, but never add it back on. This is a learning experience for everyone who wants to hone their own razors. Always use tape as a newbie on the spine of your razors to eliminate excessive hone wear. Buy some cheap razors as mentioned previously. Get a red sharpie to mark your bevel and let the razor tell you what's going on. MAKE SURE YOUR STONE IS FLAT TOO! Get a diamond plate - there are options out there that are much less expensive than a DMT.
So from one newbie to another, don't let this experience get your down. Your razor might be trashed, or it might not. If anyone can get it to shave, it would be Glen. I'm here to help you in anyway I can. I live in Pittsburgh, so if you're close don't hesitate to reach out.
Good luck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
No, not really.
Because he could not get the heel to come together he added more pressure at the heel and caused more spine wear over the heel, and ground down the stabilizer eventually.
When he was on the tang, the heel edge was nowhere near the stone. If he had honed off the stabilizer, the edge would have come together.
It is a common problem with new honers, just that he kept going, and adding more pressures.
@Euclid: I don't think I understand your line of thought.
If the stabilizer is in the way and lifts the heel end of the razor off the hone and you are applying pressure on the razor to get the heel to get in touch with the hone most of the pressure will be applied to the toe end of the blade and the stabilizer. Which will eventually cause most honewear on toe end and on the stabilizer. Not on the heel end of the blade, or only on the heel end of the spine. But if you look well at OP's pictures there's also a lot of honewear on the heel end of the cutting edge. I honestly can't see how that is caused by a stabilizer that is in the way.
I think it's safe to say that he applied too much pressure everywhere, as he mentioned that the edge doesn't cut hair anywhere. How he got there is anyone's guess, since he spent hours at it, he could have done it several ways. In summation I think he's just using so much pressure everywhere that the blade is flexing away and he's grinding away steel way behind the apex - as evidenced by the very wide bevels. This means he never gets near the apex and doesn't even then hit it regularly either since his pressure is probably all over the place.
Attachment 250975
all I can say is Wow
Great offer Glen & good luck
That hone wear is extreme. Yet observe the coloring of the hone wear. slight patina.
When I dont tape and rock to stone I get shiny steel in my eyes .
How about you? If then what. Something deeper lurks.
If spine was prior flattened, 2 plus layers of tape and many laps.
Documentable by shiny small bevel and mutiple tape changes as 100 plus laps would be nessesary.
Bigger problem flat of the spine uneven bilaterally you will notice. Edge non uniform.
Many things going on with this one.
Many strokes , foundation first, let the shiny steel, and vary pressure and stroke to ensure evenness.
Lastly joint the edges at 1K and that should even many things up.
Ok in all fairness to the OP
I did this and destroyed this razor.
Oh it was a 6/8ths, now a 5/8ths....
The community can help you get a shaveable edge.
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I don't think I understand your line of thought.
If the stabilizer is in the way and lifts the heel end of the razor off the hone and you are applying pressure on the razor to get the heel to get in touch with the hone most of the pressure will be applied to the toe end of the blade and the stabilizer.
The razor, was riding on the Stabilizer and the Spine. keeping the heel edge off the stone. Typically, pressure is added where the problem is suspected.
Which will eventually cause most hone wear on toe end and on the stabilizer. Not on the heel end of the blade, or only on the heel end of the spine.
Adding more pressure at the heel, straight down pressure, will grind the spine over the heel and the stabilizer, as was done.
But if you look well at OP's pictures there's also a lot of hone wear on the heel end of the cutting edge.
On one side, he did finally grind the stabilizer down, to where the bevel reaches the edge. The other side is not fully reaching the edge. Notice how much of the spine and tang is ground off at the stabilizer, almost smooth from spine to heel edge. Now the razor is making contact at 3 points, spine, stabilizer and bevel.
I honestly can't see how that is caused by a stabilizer that is in the way.
What you must remember is, about a 1/8 inch of width has been ground off the razor, (the bevel is almost touching the bottom of the etch) and in doing so completely removed the original heel corner. The corner of the heel is now well behind the edge of the stabilizer.
The grinding completely altered the geometry of the razor, as the spine was ground thinner, the back of the bevel was ground, lifting the edge off the stone, (digging the hole that Glen talked about, chasing the edge, post 13). The spine was being ground faster, or at the same rate as the bevel, with the edge off the stone. Notice the double bevel.
Here is what the razor would have looked like originally. Notice that the corner of the edge is about a 1/8 inch in front of the beginning of the stabilizer. Photo 3 of the OP’s razor, shows the corner is at about middle of the stabilizer, so it has moved almost ¼ inch and the blade a lot narrower.
On OP’s, photo 4 you can see the corner better, (Notice the double bevel on this side also), the current bevel may not even be asymmetrical.
A lot was going on, compounding the problem with each stroke. A vicious circle, started by honing on the stabilizer and trying to correct it with more pressure.
For new honers a simple solution is to ink the bevel and the stabilizer, to see if you are honing to the edge and ensure that you are not honing on the stabilizer.
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This is an utterly pointless diversion that has nothing to do with how this beginner screwed up his razor. I recall being reminded that we are supposed to help beginners here, so let’s stay on the true topic.
When one of your only tools is a hammer, too many things look like nails. The stabilizer had nothing to do with what went wrong here. Anyone who has honed a new Boker King Cutter knows this. The stabilizer did not cause this problem. Absolutely inexperienced and terrible honing caused this; and eventually the stabilizer suffered along with the rest of the razor.
The damage happened because the honer focused too much on the pressure on the spine rather than on the edge. The spine is to serve as a guide to set the angle of the honing but the blade needs to be slightly torqued to emphasize the pressure on the edge rather than the spine. We regularly advise beginners to tape the spine partially to accommodate for failure of beginners to focus the pressure on the edge rather than the spine.
This beginner made two mistakes. First, he put too much pressure on the spine and not enough on the edge. Second, he failed to tape the spine, which would have prevented the subsequent wear on the spine.
Because the pressure was continually higher on the spine rather than the edge, the angle of the blade kept lowering and as a result the angle of the bevels kept lowering. Because of this, the bevels never met to form an edge. This is why he never found a sharp edge. He never had one because the angles kept lowering as he kept wearing down the spine. This mistake was doomed to failure.
So now what?
GET HELP!!!!
Find someone local to help you or get more one on one help online. The first step should be to get these razors fixed by someone who knows what they are doing. Only then should you try honing your own razors again. Please don't give up and please don't take what we are telling you that you did wrong as any sort of personal criticism. For the most part, we are here to help!
Who was blaming the stabilizer?
The O.P. has been given some great advice on his razors. Until he returns with some improvements or other issues, then I would not be too concerned at this point. It's in his hands now.
He would be best served by taking Glen up on his offer. That would be the best first step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
I suspect that there may be a bit of a language barrier. Or he may have become frustrated with all the harsh and unnecessary criticism. It's not easy to be the new guy. Especially with all the old salts emphasizing how poor and tragic your first attempt was.
Yes, but that has not happened yet.
I have to confess that I did not notice the language issue until you pointed it out. We always need to be cognizant of language difficulties and I missed it this time. That said, I hope that the OP can recognize the reasons for our comments. I do not believe that anyone meant to be harsh or to make unnecessary criticism. The OP severely trashed his razor and we responded to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeJay
I agree. I don't think anyone intended to be harsh or that anyone made unnecessary criticisms. I think they were honest responses to a bad mistake. Hopefully the OP will stick around to get this all sorted out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
It may take a bit for him to come back. It is not easy to stand up and own your mistakes, especially on a public forum that you are a brand new member of. I hope he does stick around and that he sends his razors to glen and everything sweeps along like water under the bridge.
Could be the OP is a bit embarrassed to reply or seek help. I hope he does.
I am not embarrassed to say I trashed the edge of my first shave ready razor on the belt off my trousers.....Well, a little bit embarrassed.....C'mon on, give me a break. It was 4 years ago...
He bought two fairly expensive razors to start. He might have mentioned buying more to try again. Not sure if it was this site's post or the other site.
Maybe he's just waiting for the new razor to arrive.
@Grazor, in the early days I did a few less than stellar things too. I am glad that I used tape. I wish my tap did not have such a long spout. I did not learn from the first time not to tap it with my edge, nor did I learn the second time, after the third time I dinked my razor edge on the tap, a light came on in my head and a voice said " If you insist on rinsing your blade under the tap, why don't you turn it the other way so you quit dinking it on the tap" Some lessons take a while.
I believe this is a moot point, since the OP hasn't replied for 40 posts. Plus, 90% of the replies are redundant to the 1st 1/2 dozen replies (which 'may' be why he hasn't returned.):shrug:
It is important when watching Lynn's video that you understand "with pressure" does not mean excessive. When I started, I was told by 2 very respected professional honers, always use light pressure, you can always add more circles or strokes but you can't add metal. When honing, look at the blade on the stone when you are doing the circles or laps and feel the blade against the stone. It will tell you if you are putting to much pressure. Also stop and look at the razor's edge. I learned on inexpensive Ebay razors, I suggest you do the same after getting some hands on instruction.
I guess it depends on the word "excessive." I think many people might be surprised at how heavy of pressure Lynn uses at the early stages of honing. There is nothing wrong with pressure if it is used correctly.
You can use a whole hell of a lot with thicker grind blades, but with very thin hollow ground blades it's a good idea to limit the pressure a bit. Too much pressure with those results in the apex flexing away and not even touching the hone, and also can result in a very wide bevel since the hone is removing more material way behind the apex. I think this is pretty clearly what happened to the OP from this thread.
I agree with the sentiment of light pressure on those types of thin hollow grinds but I have put some serious pressure on wedges with no issues.
Except on thinly ground full hollows. A little deflection can cause a lot of problems at any stage of the honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Edit; You posted while I was typing Eric. Good to see you active here again.
And that is taken into account by my disclaimer, "if it is used correctly."Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman7
Still, probably a good idea to classify that statement since most noobs will have no clue what "used correctly" would entail, as evidenced by this very thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I don't see a necessity to qualify every statement such as this in every thread, there are already many threads on honing pressure etc, Rons statement should be good enough for someone to say " I need to research this further".Quote:
Originally Posted by eKretz
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkatzman
OK, since you brought it up, then I will leave it to you to define the word "excessive" in relation to honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by eKretz
Can we also get someone to describe the flavour of an orange too ☺Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Hmm, I thought I already had done. Excessive pressure would be that amount which would cause a hollow ground or otherwise razor to flex in such a manner that most or all of the steel is being removed way behind the actual edge, and cause the apex to no longer touch the hone. This should be fairly easy to check with a Sharpie and a loupe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
This is what happens all the time. A newbe posts about his problems, he gets some sound advice and then the advice itsesf is being discussed in detail and we start to disagree on certain details. Leaving the newbe utterly confused and thinking honing is like rocket science.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesandEights
I think it would be much better if a newbe is told to read and digest the information in the library section of this forum and take it from there. The OP of this thread had already been doing his homework so for him that would not have been helpful.
Another policy might be that a moderator takes a newbe with questions under his wings.
Its good to talk :)
Saw on another thread that he has moved on to a Feather.
In all fairness, he (OP) states that he tried all the "techniques out there" . I don't see how he achieved what he did, had he spent several hours in the library. I suspect he spent some time researching , somewhere, then got engulfed by a method that took him down the wrong path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
We have mentors that do exactly what you suggested moderators do.
To this day, I still don't think he took up the offer to have his razor worked on.
Would like to join the others that have congradulated you on having the spunk to buy razors and set out to hone and use them.
It is what we are all trying to do - and part of the fun is that the learning never stops.
You may have underestimated how delicate the undertaking of honing is.
If you set out on your own to learn to change a transmission, grill a steak, or carve a turkey - I am certain you would have ended up being successful.
Unfortunately, learning to hone a razor is more like teaching yourself how to do open heart surgery.
Find a someone to give you some hands-on teaching and you will do very well.
Boy, some of you guys really flogged this poor guy. I'd probably have deleted my account and moved on from here. Which I have done on an other site when I was new. It bothers me to see how many continuous floggings his methods got him instead of gentle guidance. It was like some of you were enjoying it..... The razors can be saved, he DOES NOT need to send them off to be fixed, he will be able to understand how to do that himself in the future, but, they will need to be marked somehow because they will always need tape in the future. I kinda like the idea of someone near him being able to help him personally with understanding sharpening razors. If you want to flog on me now thats ok, but leave him alone.
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerdvaark
I agree. Being to 'new' to this forum and kinda new to SR, I can see where some die hard members get carried away with thier reply's. But, as in life, one needs to be Thick Skinned or get eaten by the wolves.
Some members need to understand that $, especially a $100 or so, is not the 'end of the world' if lost. Heck, I (as have most) wasted more on a lot dumber ((and less educating)) things. However, I do understand there are those that take things serious. As a gunsmith for, echem...a 'few' years, I have seen far more 'valuable' firearms come thru my shop that has had a backyard dremel 'smith "fix" it. But, in the end one has to realize, chances are...that was not the ONLY one the manufacturer made. And the current owner has to live with the decisions he made. Which, in turn, becomes another 'lore/legend' when passed down thru the years.
Problem is, with these forums, 90% have the same thought...yet won't let one or two say it then let it go. Then there are those who 'scalp' the 'norm's' thoughts and re-post the same darn thing. (When I reality, they too have done the same thing, but were too afraid to say it out loud)
Being 'new', I'm sure I'll catch flak...but hey...I'm a BiG BoY.
Nope no flak
Just going to leave this here :rofl2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx2Sps9aMcY
