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That's exactly the perfect mindset. I tried pushing through frustration on my first bevel set and the time was completely wasted, along with quite a bit of steel that old razor will never get back. Coming back a day later with a clear mind is the biggest time saver there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcm
OK ~ so going in reverse the last pic(heel) looks like it has a burr...or... is that an artifact from the microscope, not quite in focus ???Quote:
Originally Posted by pcm
I ask because the first heel pic with the sideways scratches does not show the same symptoms. If it's just the pic move on to 8k. If it is a burr also move on keeping very light strokes till the burr goes away. Flush the stone regularly to remove swarf .
There was this thing recommended a lot in the past called the pyramid honing method which went back & forth between 2 stones at a time. Kinda deliberately doing what you needed to here. Might make some good reading
btw don't worry about those scratches. You have simply moved the razor sideways on the stone at some point
So I finally realized what caused the sideways scratches... I was doing a heel forward rolling X stroke. As I moved down the stone, it made diagonal stria, but halfway down, was I started to move the heel off the stone for the X part of the stroke, the movement on the heel is almost parallel to the edge. Duh...
I"ll check the edge again, under the microscope to see if there is a burr or not at the heel. I'm a little concerned with the toe contact as well, seems like I'm not quite getting all of the bevel contacting, but maybe it's just the light reflection on the bevel.
I had a long day yesterday working (started at 6am, and was working in between honing, up to 8:30pm), so I probably should have skipped honing. I'll give it a look Saturday, when I have more time and can focus better...
Thanks for the advice everyone!
You might want to look at your old post in, Second Try at Honing, page 12, post 56, where you had a similar issue. The photos are very similar.
Try stropping on linen and leather to straighten the edge.
What the heck, do you have a photographic memory? Cross referenced everything in the forum inside your head or something? :dropjaw:Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Ha, no.
Just remember working with PCM on that thread and another.
What I recall was most of his problem, stemmed from not using enough pressure to first set the bevel and build an even stria pattern that honed to the edge.
This morning I went back to that thread and look the photos and they looked very similar with deep 1k stria and ragged edge.
Having worked with several new guys, lately I noticed a pattern of not using enough pressure, and they all say the same thing. “Everybody says not to use pressure on razors”
If you use too much pressure you will get a flat bevel, but your edge might chip. A quick jointing of the edge and re-set of the bevel will quickly fix that.
Did 2 layers of tape, on the 4K, with the blade perpendicular to the stone, moving in an X-stroke, with a finger of pressure on the heel and toe...
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Did you use fresh tape right before the end of the honing?
No, not on this one. Did about 60 strokes, with checking every 20.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
New tape today, did 20 strokes, then inked and did 2 more stokes. Was not getting it to touch on the right side for the last 1/4 towards heel (first picture) and on the left side right at the heel (last pict), and on both sides of the toe. Found that I really needed much more pressure, especially on the heel. Did another 10 X strokes with the blade perpendicular to stone. You can see some ink on the right side toe (3rd pict), but is is up a bit on the curve. Not sure I could hit that will out really raising the blade up...
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I think Euclid440 was right, I needed much more pressure on the heel and toe. I put on fresh tape and did 20 strokes on the 8K, again with blade perpendicular to the stone, doing X stroke, with very firm pressure on heel and toe...
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I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing right now. Will stop for today, and based on people's feedback, will proceed tomorrow (don't want to try too much at once, since is going better).
Bevel looks a lot cleaner now
:beer1:
A lot of pretty pictures but no mention of how it shaves...
Still need to get up to 12k and then I'll test shave it (though could do sooner)Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
sent from my phone.
IMHO if you needed firm pressure on an 8k you didn't set the bevel properly or your stroke is not compensating for warpQuote:
Originally Posted by pcm
As you said you may need to lift the blade slightly at certain points.
The problem with using pressure this late in the progression is that the edge will be so fine that it can crumble & break giving you an uncomfortable shave. You simply cannot use firm pressure on your 12k or you will be chasing your tail.
btw. Gratz on your progress.
I'll try more strokes on the 8k, trying to roll, more than apply pressure, and see how it goes. Still seems like I'm only half way up on the bevel in some places.
Hopefully Thursday, I'll get some time to work on it.
You need contact at the edge & the lightest strokes will give you that, at this point, with the right stroke. Don't worry about contacting the shoulder (top) of the bevel. The pressure you used has thinned the blade & made the bevel larger in spots so just focus on the edge area. It should polish up before the shoulder. If the shoulder follows, well & good if the scratches remain coarser there, don't worry. If only half of the bevel polishes up ie the edge half, that's all you need. Chasing a polish on the whole bevel may waste steel & compromise an already good edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcm
If you're bevel is not right, 8k & above is a waste of time.
Another bevel set tip. You can work on specific areas' rubbing the blade back n' forwards if bevel is incomplete then do your longer strokes to even it up
Many know I don't care for tape. You are just screwing with the proper geometry of the blade to much for me. There are many on here who offer honing & restoration services services. I think you would be better off to have someone restore that edge before it is too late. You should be able to cut hair at every level of hone. If you can't you "AIN'T done with that hone. I hope you get it sorted out.
Slawman
Appreciate the concern on the edge, but my goal is to learn to maintain my razors, and hence the posting and requests for guidance/feedback. Sending it out to a pro (which I did on the first honing of this new blade), doesn't help me learn the process to sharpen a razor. Through, hone several razors so far, I'm learning that each has peculiarities that need to be considered, and the honing process adapted to meet those needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slawman
Regarding taping, it seems to be a highly debated idea, with good points on each side. For me, I've made the decision that, after my first honing, where I wore down the spine, before seeking guidance, and having other blades that had some challenging edges (I've posted about a near wedge with a large smile and really challenging bevel - that I was able to successfully hone with lots of guidance), that taping is a reasonable approach for me to use.
Is there something specific in the process that I'm doing, that you feel is leading to unrecoverable damage to the edge? I'd like to hear what and why, so that I can consider take actions to prevent that. I surely don't want to damage the blade needlessly, but none of the blades I have are considered too valuable to lose (I don't have any with sentimental value, or that are expensive/fancy).Quote:
I think you would be better off to have someone restore that edge before it is too late. You should be able to cut hair at every level of hone. If you can't you "AIN'T done with that hone. I hope you get it sorted out.
Slawman
FYI, this blade is cutting arm hair, and has been, since the 1K stage, however, for me, that hasn't been a great indicator of a comfortable shave.
Heel and toe still need a bit more work, not honing to the edge at the heel and toe.
More so on the toe.
On the 8K, two layers of tape, I did about 30 strokes with firm pressure, and then 40 strokes with lighter pressure (replacing tape first). In both cases, no finger pressure on the heel or toe, as I did on previous hone. Instead I did two things. First, I used heel forward so that the stria is at an angle, instead of perpendicular to the edge, so that I can see the change in marks. Second, I tried rolling the blade, with more weight on heel and then on toe (with a very slight lift at the end of the stroke to try to catch the toe better. Checked with inking that I was getting coverage on one pass.
Here are high rez shots (heel to toe, toe to heel):
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Here are shots at lower resolution, so that you can see the whole edge better (I missed the middle on one side):
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Finally, here are three shots of the edge, head on, at ends and middle (all at high resolution):
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The toe on one side, seems to have several different facets (fourth shot). Not sure how to deal with that. The other side of the toe seems to have slightly deeper stria, but they are in the new direction (so from the 8k stone).
The edge seems to be meeting OK, if I'm interpreting the picture OK.
Looks lots better, that multi bevel at the toe is from rocking with the X stroke and not using enough even pressure to keep the bevel flat on the stone.
Just takes a bit of practice to get an even flat bevel at the end of the stroke, but looks like it is honed to the edge, so should not be an issue.
I would move up to the 8k but be careful there is hair all over that razor and a hair on the stone will screw up an edge. Rinse and dry well.
Yes the edge photos look good.
Nice work.
It took me a sec to figure out what that hair was :p
It appears that each of the photos (not just the 4th one) shows multiple facets.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcm
Would you please show a non-magnified photo of this razor? Maybe that will provide a clue to this.
One concern that i have is that you are doing 70 strokes on an 8k. In my opinion that is way too many. 15 or 20 strokes should be more than enough on an 8k.
Another issue is your pressure variations. I know that you have tried varying the finger placement on the blade and this time you tried no extra pressure, but what about torquing the blade? In addition to varying the pressure along the edge while doing a rolling x stroke, you also need to be slightly torquing the blade in a rotational manner so that you are increasing the pressure on the edge while reducing it on the spine. I'm sorry if torquing has been addressed in any of your previous honing threads, but I don't recall it.
This was on the 8K. There is a lot of dust, hair, dirt on the microscope base, and I end up picking up some, when moving the razor around under the microscope. I need to clean the area more. I do wipe the razor off, before going back to the stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
I didn't try torquing the blade. I could do that. Should I stay at the 8K, go back to the 4K, or something different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Here are photos of the blade taken with a 50mm lens (equivalent) of my camera. Not sure how well the lighting is...
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If it's not viewable, let me know (seems compressed some). I can post the original full sized image on a web page and then link to this forum.
OK, thanks. It looks like you are starting to hit the stabilizer on the back side and have the beginning of a hook. I think Onimaru addressed this several pages back.
I think torquing is one of the hardest things for beginning honers to grasp. You need to do it, but it should not be excessive. You just keep your focus on the pressure being on the edge, even with the lightest stroke, and the spine should just go along for a relatively weightless ride. The spine serves only as an angle guide, with the bevel angle being determined by the angle established by the spine and the edge, but steel only needs to be removed from the bevels to create the edge. That's why I'm saying that you focus your pressure at the edge, where steel needs to be removed, rather than on the spine that is only a guide.
You to not want to exert a lot of rotational pressure (torquing) when you do this. On anything but a wedge, if you do so you run the risk of bending the blade which will have the effect of honing the belly side of the bevel and never making contact with the edge side of the bevel because the edge will be lifted off of the hone.
I hope that is clear.
I would drop down to the 4k or whatever you use before the 8k. Do whatever number of strokes needed to create flat pristinely uniform bevels again. Use the focussed torquing and, as always, fresh tape. I don't think you should not need more than 10 to 20 strokes. After that, change the tape and with light strokes and that same focussed torquing, do no more than 20 8k strokes. Repeat the same with the 12k with maybe only 10 strokes
I don't advise using a different stroke unless its the exact mirror opposite of what you're using that works. If you're leading with the heel at an angle & getting the whole edge, changing to a perpendicular stroke will give you a slightly different contact in places & then the whole edge doesn't get honed evenly.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcm
Re: stabilizer. I'm not hitting the stabilizer anymore. When I first started with this blade and was doing heel forward, I was hitting the stabilizer ever once and a while. I started placing my thumb and index finger on the stabilizer, so that I did not contact the stabilizer further. The marks on the stabilizer are old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Can you please point out in photos on post 101, where the hook is? I'm not seeing one. The hook that was mentioned before, I dragged the corner of the heel on the side of the stone for a few strokes to try to eliminate that pointed corner.
Should there have been more rounding done?
I will try torquing the blade at 4K to see If I can improve the toe, which seems to me to be the area of concern with multiple facets. Previously, I was trying to lift/lighten the heel, but apparently not being consistent in that technique.
Good to know. I was using the different orientation to see if the stria is changing and I'm getting to the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
Given the toe (and heel) on this blade, which apparently a small warp (and narrower blade at the toe) which stroke is advised (I'm probably going to get several differing opinions)?
Heel forward? X stroke? With a swoop at the end (like the letter J)? Torquing the edge a bit?
No photo in 101 shows a hook. The second photo in 107 suggested a hook, but maybe it's just a shadow.
You do not need to do any excessive rounding to eliminate a hook A few strokes usually is all it takes. If you already did that, then it's probably fine.
4K, two layers of tape, and trying to torque the blade, heel forward, in a J shaped/swooping stroke. I had a hard time getting contact on the toe (markered numerous times), probably only half the time. Heel was fine getting contact. Here is the latest look, at high magnification (a 1mm or less bevel):
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The stroke that works is the one to use, then stay with it. Inking the blade will tell you the ideal stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcm
You can always work on single areas as I already mentioned then even up but use a stroke that works.
You know what's annoying? He's right!Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
That stroke that works is the one to use. Ain't our advice here great?
:roflmao
Though it's not perfect yet, it looks like you have more uniformity in the bevel now. I think you are getting closer and with more practice it will improve more. A change in your stroke to hit the toe properly should be your next goal.
The toe on one side seems to need work.
Not quite sure in what way to change the stroke, however...
sent from my phone.
It might be you. It might be the razor. Keep going back and forth between hone and scope and you will figure it out.
Getting somewhat better, few times I get the whole edge, a few times not. Probably 80% of the time. Did about 10 strokes at 4k with 2 layers...
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Thoughts about the edge?
Bevel still has a few stray scratches but the edge looks a lot better. From what I can see on my phone at work I think you're good to go onto the 8k.
Do I need to mention fresh tape?!!
