Ding near toe... go right to the 1K?

Hi, my Boker (one of 6 razors that I cycle through for shaving) was getting irritating and was near the end of its rotation (it's not one of my favorites of the bunch), about 40 shaves with it. I took a look at the edge and it seemed OK (high magnification, so it's sometimes hare to tell if just debris or not), except at the toe, where I see a 1mm wide ding:

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I've got Norton 1K, 4K, 8K, SS 12K. Think I should go right to the 1K with circles to get out the ding and then reset the bevel? I was thinking I may spend a long time with higher grits and end up at 1K anyway?

The edge on this is close to 1mm wide at the end, but only a 1/2mm in the middle. It was a new razor, pro-honed once, and (I think) I may have touched it up once as well.

It's been awhile since I had to deal with dings (not sure how I got this one). Last honing was just a bit on 4K, 8K, and 12K to sharpen up the edge on a Spike (one of my favs).

Thoughts?

You have more than the ding at the tip. You seem to have some pitting on the edge. Don't know power of magnification but edge has a lot of grooves in it. Not the usual polished edge.

The hash marks in the pics are 1mm wide, so it is pretty high magnification.

sent from my phone.

I would start with a 4K & see if this removes it, you can always drop to a 1K , if it is that bad.

Yup, the bevel looks like it needs some work and a 4k might do it, but with the chip, 1k.

You might just reshape the toe and save a bit of width.

I would do 4k also...see where that gets you.

I concur drop to the 4K or equivalent, no need to drop all the way down if it's not needed. You'll just make more work for yourself.

I have to say you can remove metal pretty fast with the 4K with a bevel that is somewhat developed. It does appear that your bevel is not completely set, however I am not particularly familiar with working with that high of magnification. In any event some time on the 4K will certainly get your very tiny damage out and get you ready for starting to polish the bevels. I am going to guess seeing as you said Boker that we are talking about a full hollow and looking at the hash marks your bevel is only about a mm wide, so that damage is .25mm. A 4K will make quick work of that.

I think a regular picture without magnification would help us to better understand what we are looking at. It does look like either the bevel may not be fully set or you have a small secondary bevel. Either way, fixing the damage should take care of it.

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Originally Posted by BeJay

It does look like either the bevel may not be fully set or you have a small secondary bevel. Either way, fixing the damage should take care of it.

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This ^

1k will be the quickest correction.

The bevel was set and it had a good edge, prior to using it (40 shaves ago). Started getting some irritation with it, so I moved to the next blade in the rotation. It has a small secondary bevel on it.

I'll give a shot with the 4K, and see how it goes. If I don't make progress, I can try the 1k (I do have a 2k SS as well (forgot about that one). As RezDog highlighted, it is very shallow, less than 1/4mm.

Will give it a go tomorrow night (hopefully).

Thanks for the suggestions/recommendation everyone.

You have access to magnification, so you might as well take advantage and see what you can accomplish on the 4k to take out the ding and bring back the full edge. If you became impatient with what you see for rate of progress, then you might as well drop down to the 1k. Odds are good though that the 4k will be sufficient. Regardless, you have both hone options, as well as the scope, so you are free to explore and use all of it as a learning opportunity!

I would kill that edge and start on the 1k , personally.

Keep checking the edge under that magnification to make sure you are reaching the edge.

Use minimum pressure..

Can we see pics after you have fixed it up please ..?
Good luck.

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Originally Posted by JOB15

I would kill that edge and start on the 1k , personally.

Keep checking the edge under that magnification to make sure you are reaching the edge.

Use minimum pressure..

Can we see pics after you have fixed it up please ..?
Good luck.

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Pictures after? Sure, only if i I don't screw it up. :)


sent from my phone.

Because you already have learned what it takes to set a bevel, and because you have magnification to see when you have set a bevel, you have absolutely no need to kill the edge. You gain nothing from doing it.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Because you already have learned what it takes to set a bevel, and because you have magnification to see when you have set a bevel, you have absolutely no need to kill the edge. You gain nothing from doing it.

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Very true but it give you a sense of starting from scratch..

Edge looks pretty dead to me :)

Well, pleasantly surprised. Used one layer of tape and did circles on the 4K Norton. It looks like it took it right out, and AFAICT, the bevel seems to be met still.

Attachment 251388

and then I did heel forward strokes.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Edge looks pretty dead to me :)

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No words necessary.

:roflmao

“and AFAICT, the bevel seems to be met still.”

No, not really, the toe and edge still need a bit more work, the edge is not fully set. Yes the chip is almost gone, but you should have a uniform pattern from the edge to the back of the bevel. You are close.

Do some more light, circles, to bring the edge further together, then some smooth X strokes to blend the toe and get an even stria pattern across the whole bevel.

Any extra time you spend her will pay you dividends at the finishing stones.

Went to 8K and then to 12K SS. Here's the latest...

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Edge doesn't look ready to me but may be the pic. Awaiting the shave test verdict.

It definitely had multiple facets on the toe. After a while honing and seeing it wasn't getting to the toe, I started applying pressure.

Ran out of time tonight. I'll test it tomorrow, but need to go back and work on toe more it sounds.

sent from my phone.

Nope, bevel still not set, back to the 4k or bite the bullet and set it fully on the 1k.

Often when you have chipping like you had, if the result of an impact, the steel will be weak and some will have to be removed to get to solid steel.

Can you elaborate on the bevel set? Looking along the edge it meets, except for right at the toe. Is that what you mean? Or is it that the toe has multiple surfaces?

sent from my phone.

There are a lot of relatively deep stria right at the edge that fade as you move up the bevel. In the second picture, the roughness of the edge is very apparent, much more so than it should be after a 12k Naniwa. That indicates to me that you have been mostly polishing the bevel behind the edge while leaving the edge still rough. If the bevel was truly set, you'd be polishing all the way to the edge.

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Originally Posted by sqzbxr

There are a lot of relatively deep stria right at the edge that fade as you move up the bevel. In the second picture, the roughness of the edge is very apparent, much more so than it should be after a 12k Naniwa. That indicates to me that you have been mostly polishing the bevel behind the edge while leaving the edge still rough. If the bevel was truly set, you'd be polishing all the way to the edge.

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Thanks for the clarification. It's been several months since I did some honing, and I need to relearn some of the steps.


sent from my phone.

This is an enlarged section of your second photo with the brightness and contrast tweaked a little to show the stria at the edge:

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I wouldn't accept that edge even off a 1K.

I personally would go to the 1k and perform rolling X strokes with little pressure .

Also making sure I didn't do too much .. Easier said than done without experience.

Here is a 1k edge I did recently. Your 1k edge should look a bit more like this imo:
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOB15

I wouldn't accept that edge even off a 1K.

I personally would go to the 1k and perform rolling X strokes with little pressure .

Also making sure I didn't do too much .. Easier said than done without experience.

Here is a 1k edge I did recently. Your 1k edge should look a bit more like this imo:
Attachment 251419

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How wide is your bevel in this picture? My bevel is about 0.5mm in the center of the blade and near 1mm at the edges (so this picture is pretty high magnification). It definitely has deeper/more stria than the heel and toe (I was really concentrating on the toe, because of the ding). I'll try to work on it with the 4K as soon as I get another chance, and see how it comes out. I didn't get to test shave it this morning (forgot to bring it up into the bathroom last night).

Probably double the size of yours .
I like to have minimum teeth with the bevel set before I move on, metal type dependant of course.

If I see micro chips or teeth I nail drag it and come back more tentatively.

I think if you start off well you can end well and get really decent edges..
These are my thoughts at this moment in time. It's a constant learning curve..

With 4K did a bunch of circles, and then heel leading strokes with pressure on mid and toe, then lighter strokes. This is where it is right now (the marks are 1mm apart.

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Lower rez of this side of the blade:
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Much better, but the edge looks weak. If you look just, behind the edge the steel looks to be a different shade and the edge crumbling, usually an indication of an edge failing. Second photo, post 32.

You might get lucky and if you spend enough time on the 8k bring the edge together fully, but why. This is what is meant by maxing out each stone.

Look at Job15’s 1k edge on post 29, notice how the stria and steel, look the same from the back of the bevel to the edge, and how straight his 1k edge is. Very nice edge. Once the bevel is set, do slow, light pressure laps, to max out the stone. It just takes a few minutes more.

An edge is built, one step at a time.

At 8k your edge should be super straight, compare that to your 12k edge. Compare your post 32 second photo edge to your post 21, second photo edge. Then to Job’s post 29.

Joint the edge and re-set on the 4K.

You are close…

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Joint the edge and re-set on the 4K.

You are close…

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Or take it back to 1k especially if you keep getting a ragged edge. Any compromised steel simply has to go but be mindful of not bearing down heavily. Excess pressure can also smash up an edge..

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Or take it back to 1k especially if you keep getting a ragged edge. Any compromised steel simply has to go but be mindful of not bearing down heavily. Excess pressure can also smash up an edge..

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Yeah, I'm debating whether I should drop down to the 1K (or the 2K SS I have).

Either one, the 2 is aggressive leaving a shallower stria.

You do not need to remove much steel.

Dropped to the 1K, ran the edge across the corner of the stone, and then did X strokes. Checked and it seemed pretty jagged on the edge. Did another run across the corner, and then more X strokes, most with the weight of the blade. Here is what I have (high magnification, both sides).

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Still some stria from circles. Not sure about the edge smoothness. Thoughts?

Still looks like the edge is getting flint-knapped in some spots but I don't know what mag. we are looking at.
Thing is if you progress higher at this point only 2 things can happen. The edge will improve or faults will become more apparent that can be remedied by dropping back a grit.

If this is a 1k edge, you can try to improve it on 2k. If the edge smooths out you know you were close, if it's slow going you could go back to 1k. Pyramid honing of sorts. Remember tho that light strokes are imperative now as you want to contact the edge, not so much the bevel's shoulder.

Yea, still looks like you are not honing to the edge and a lot of circular stria. Remove all of that with X strokes. Look at photo, 1 in post 38, look at the edge at the heel. Not reaching the edge there and lots of deep stria on the bevel from edge to the back.

Same for photos 2 & 3.

Photo 6, shows horizontal stria on the bevel. Do x laps until all that is gone and you are honing to the edge.

2 layer of tape might help. Make sure to watch your tape and change at the slightest indication of wear.

If you switch to 2 layers of tape, say on it until you get an even stria pattern, from edge to the back of the bevel.

What does the spine look like on this razor?