Tape on the spine

Hello

Im far from honing a razor, because im practicing using a shavett now. I am curious though about honing. If a person tapes the spine that would make the razor have an obtuse angle. If a person dont tape the spine and as the spine wears and the blade width decreases. Does the bevel height get taller. Meaning the bevel of the cutting edge. As the spine wears it looks like the edge angle would get thinner, but taller if that makes since.

I read somewhere i dont know which forum about a good idea when to tape the spine. This guy tapes his razor everytime, but only to set the bevel at 1k. Before he moves to the 4k he removes the tape, then takes permanent marker and marks not only the bevel but above the bevel a bit.Naturaly with no tape on the razor now using the 4k the bevel that was set on the 1k will not come into contact with the stone, but creates a secondary bevel. The reason he marked the bevel is when the marker is gone he knows that the first and secondary bevel become one bevel. The reason for the tape on the 1k was because thats the most aggressive stone he used, and the tape would protect the spine against the aggressiveness of the 1k. On the 4k and beyond minimal spine wear, because your just refining and not removing a lot of metal.

Having honed razors the past 8-9 years, with, and without, I just use tape on all of them now. So far so good. Here is more food for thought ;

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...highlight=tape

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...highlight=tape

I always tape the spine. Mainly to avoid excessive hone wear.

I never tape, only on old and/or very used razors. Tapes a little smushy, easy to put incorrect pressure on different parts of the blade imo. Tape is constantly wearing out and changing the angle.

And yet, if done correctly, taping is just fine. Just as importantly, it helps to prevent major mistakes by beginners.

But still, I was able to hone through six layers of tape and wonder what the heck I was doing wrong. Very, little prevention there...

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

But still, I was able to hone through six layers of tape and wonder what the heck I was doing wrong. Very, little prevention there...

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I don't know, On that occasion I shudder to think what the result would have been with no tape :rolleyes:

Easy.... I would have sharpened the spine before the blade.....:cry:

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

But still, I was able to hone through six layers of tape and wonder what the heck I was doing wrong. Very, little prevention there...

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If you were able to hone through 6 layers of tape (that's a lot of tape!!) you were using way too much pressure to put it mildly. Tape is to prevent hone wear on the spine so that geometry of the blade can be preserved (or corrected) as well the aesthetics of the razor.

Did you mark the bevel with a Sharpie so you could tell where contact was being made and use a loupe?

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

But still, I was able to hone through six layers of tape and wonder what the heck I was doing wrong. Very, little prevention there...

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What you were doing wrong was using 6 layers of tape. How is your honing now?

I used 6 layers of tape a long time ago while I was trying to compensate for the wear in the tape. Yep, I just kept on adding tape. I'm glad I did that though because that is when I realized I needed to ever so slightly give the edge the predominance of pressure. I thought that the edge, being as thin as it was would automatically sharpen first. Then, when seeing the flat spot now on the spine, it would be virtually impossible to get the edge any sharper. That's the way it seemed to me anyway. Could be different for others. So, nowadays I have a very good feeling for what I'm experiencing during the honing process at the edge. Also, probably like a lot of people, I like a very fast cutting, fine particulate hardish stone.

When people first start to hone there is way too much pressure on the spine. Taping for beginners saves razors. As people progress in their honing skills they will put less pressure on the spine and more on the edge, leaving taping more of a choice. Tape is very thin and one layer is not going to make any dramatic effects on the edge.

Hey folks,

You know the whole thing confuses me on tape or not tape?? Everyone says the spine acts as a guide to maintaining the correct angle through the life of the razor, i read somewhere thats about 17°. Well im all truth if i dont ever tape the spine when honing, then the spine thins little by little each honing. As the spine thins then the bevel angle thins also. The width of the edge angle gets wider ( but not at a cross-sectional view) at a cross-sectional view the edge will be thinner. So if that spine is a guide to keep a razor at roughly 17° though out all honings. Why does the geometry of the edge change when the spine wears?

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Originally Posted by Southbound

Hey folks,

You know the whole thing confuses me on tape or not tape?? Everyone says the spine acts as a guide to maintaining the correct angle through the life of the razor, i read somewhere thats about 17°. Well im all truth if i dont ever tape the spine when honing, then the spine thins little by little each honing. As the spine thins then the bevel angle thins also. The width of the edge angle gets wider ( but not at a cross-sectional view) at a cross-sectional view the edge will be thinner. So if that spine is a guide to keep a razor at roughly 17° though out all honings. Why does the geometry of the edge change when the spine wears?

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Attachment 251472

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Originally Posted by Southbound

Hey folks,

You know the whole thing confuses me on tape or not tape?? Everyone says the spine acts as a guide to maintaining the correct angle through the life of the razor, i read somewhere thats about 17°. Well im all truth if i dont ever tape the spine when honing, then the spine thins little by little each honing. As the spine thins then the bevel angle thins also. The width of the edge angle gets wider ( but not at a cross-sectional view) at a cross-sectional view the edge will be thinner. So if that spine is a guide to keep a razor at roughly 17° though out all honings. Why does the geometry of the edge change when the spine wears?

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Originally Posted by RezDog

When people first start to hone there is way too much pressure on the spine. Taping for beginners saves razors. As people progress in their honing skills they will put less pressure on the spine and more on the edge, leaving taping more of a choice. Tape is very thin and one layer is not going to make any dramatic effects on the edge.

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^^^^ Your answer is just above your question...
I would add with the quality stones available and knowledge you can get here, you can maintain your razor and keep it shave ready with minimal wear over your lifetime, and many other lifetimes. This makes the change of angle through wear negligible. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Southbound

Hey folks,

You know the whole thing confuses me on tape or not tape?? Everyone says the spine acts as a guide to maintaining the correct angle through the life of the razor, i read somewhere thats about 17°. Well im all truth if i dont ever tape the spine when honing, then the spine thins little by little each honing. As the spine thins then the bevel angle thins also. The width of the edge angle gets wider ( but not at a cross-sectional view) at a cross-sectional view the edge will be thinner. So if that spine is a guide to keep a razor at roughly 17° though out all honings. Why does the geometry of the edge change when the spine wears?

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If a shaver has one or two razors and rotates them, hones them when they need a touch up for say 20 years, the issue of edge and spine wearing together would probably come into play. Thing is, that the average guy on SRP has dozens of razors, if not hundreds, and rarely shaves with the same one on any kind of regular basis.

These razors, if they are properly honed and stropped to begin with, don't return to the hones often. So the wear will be negligible. Once the bevel is set on a 'good' razor the amount of metal removed is minuscule, IMHO, if it is properly honed from there on out.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If a shaver has one or two razors and rotates them, hones them when they need a touch up for say 20 years, the issue of edge and spine wearing together would probably come into play. Thing is, that the average guy on SRP has dozens of razors, if not hundreds, and rarely shaves with the same one on any kind of regular basis.

These razors, if they are properly honed and stropped to begin with, don't return to the hones often. So the wear will be negligible. Once the bevel is set on a 'good' razor the amount of metal removed is minuscule, IMHO, if it is properly honed from there on out.

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i used and rotated the same two razors for almost 35 yrs. Only ever touched up on a barber hone or coticule. Never had to hone out any nicks or anything and there is no distinguishable hone wear and they still shave like champs.

Since I found this site and all of you enablers, those razors are packed away and no longer in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Southbound

Hey folks,

You know the whole thing confuses me on tape or not tape?? Everyone says the spine acts as a guide to maintaining the correct angle through the life of the razor, i read somewhere thats about 17°. Well im all truth if i dont ever tape the spine when honing, then the spine thins little by little each honing. As the spine thins then the bevel angle thins also. The width of the edge angle gets wider ( but not at a cross-sectional view) at a cross-sectional view the edge will be thinner. So if that spine is a guide to keep a razor at roughly 17° though out all honings. Why does the geometry of the edge change when the spine wears?

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In theory the spine and edge wear together, spine thins and blade narrows, maintaining the geometry of the blade. Like RezDog says if you put more pressure on the spine and little on the edge the spine wears faster, as is the case with beginners, and the geometry can get out of whack pretty quickly.

The 17 degree angle of bevel still allows for a few degrees + or - to be still within tolerance.

Bob

So, tape if you want, don’t if you don’t want to.

If you are new to honing, tape until you “Master” honing, where you are removing a minimal amount of metal. Then decide if you want to continue to tape.

There is no down side to using tape, but many a razor has had the spine grown down needlessly, to where it will not hold an edge. Taping the spine is the only way to “Repair” that razor, so it will hold an edge.

The whole blade width to spine thickness does not hold up over time, because they do not wear at the same rate.

A bevel need only be set once, in its lifetime, if properly maintained, even a touch up on a high grit stone, will remove very little metal from the bevel and spine. Many a well-used, vintage razor, 100 plus years old, can be found with very little if any spine wear.

If you are confused, use tape until you are not confused, and fully understand the honing process…

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Originally Posted by BobH

In theory the spine and edge wear together, spine thins and blade narrows, maintaining the geometry of the blade. Like RezDog says if you put more pressure on the spine and little on the edge the spine wears faster, as is the case with beginners, and the geometry can get out of whack pretty quickly.

The 17 degree angle of bevel still allows for a few degrees + or - to be still within tolerance.

Bob

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But when the spine gets thinner, so does the edge.
Yes. But the bevel gets broader. (The height of the bevel)

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Originally Posted by Southbound

Hello

Im far from honing a razor, because im practicing using a shavett now. I am curious though about honing. If a person tapes the spine that would make the razor have an obtuse angle. If a person dont tape the spine and as the spine wears and the blade width decreases. Does the bevel height get taller. Meaning the bevel of the cutting edge. As the spine wears it looks like the edge angle would get thinner, but taller if that makes since.

I read somewhere i dont know which forum about a good idea when to tape the spine. This guy tapes his razor everytime, but only to set the bevel at 1k. Before he moves to the 4k he removes the tape, then takes permanent marker and marks not only the bevel but above the bevel a bit.Naturaly with no tape on the razor now using the 4k the bevel that was set on the 1k will not come into contact with the stone, but creates a secondary bevel. The reason he marked the bevel is when the marker is gone he knows that the first and secondary bevel become one bevel. The reason for the tape on the 1k was because thats the most aggressive stone he used, and the tape would protect the spine against the aggressiveness of the 1k. On the 4k and beyond minimal spine wear, because your just refining and not removing a lot of metal.

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This is self explanatory/please take the time to watch and Listen;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchDtXzUO4

They do not wear at the same rate.

You can argue theory all day long… buy you can’t argue with fact.

Never seen a razor that will not hold an edge from the use of tape. Have seen a bunch or razors, that will not hold an edge from ground spines.

Again, tape is the fix.

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Originally Posted by Southbound

But when the spine gets thinner, so does the edge.
Yes. But the bevel gets broader. (The height of the bevel)

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Ah no, again in theory the bevel should not get broader. You need a certain width spine for a certain size blade to get a 17 degree bevel. As the spine narrows and the blade size shrinks the bevel should remain the same width. That is the theory but in practice all bets are off especially if the spine wears faster, thins, than the blade size reduces.

A good example is a near wedge with heavy hone wear and it shows a wide bevel. You likely need to add multiple layers of tape to compensate for the heavy hone wear and your new bevel should be thinner than the original.

Bob

On a hollow ground razor with a lot of hone wear the bevel will get too wide without tape and become very chippy/crumbly and probably not give good shaves at all if you can even get it sharp. I just use one layer of tape (2 on a wedge) on everything now just for my own consistency. You can't put metal back on the spine if you get to aggressive when you first start honing.

I come back after a 2 year hiatus from the forum - glad to see things haven't changed a bit!

I would add that most if not all custom razor makers hone with tape - there is just no reason not to, other than preference - if you're "wearing" through tape you're using too much pressure.

-john

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Originally Posted by BobH

Ah no, again in theory the bevel should not get broader. You need a certain width spine for a certain size blade to get a 17 degree bevel. As the spine narrows and the blade size shrinks the bevel should remain the same width. That is the theory but in practice all bets are off especially if the spine wears faster, thins, than the blade size reduces.

A good example is a near wedge with heavy hone wear and it shows a wide bevel. You likely need to add multiple layers of tape to compensate for the heavy hone wear and your new bevel should be thinner than the original.

Bob

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Sorry, but that is not correct.

As "the blade size shrinks," the edge will migrate closer to the spine. The thickness of the blade increases as you get closer to the spine. This is true for a wedge, a half or quarter hollow, or a full hollow. As the edge migrates into the thicker part of the blade, the bevels will be wider.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Sorry, but that is not correct.

As "the blade size shrinks," the edge will migrate closer to the spine. The thickness of the blade increases as you get closer to the spine. This is true for a wedge, a half or quarter hollow, or a full hollow. As the edge migrates into the thicker part of the blade, the bevels will be wider.

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OK, but not hugely wider then?

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

OK, but not hugely wider then?

Bob

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OK, I'll give you that.

It won't get hugely wider until it gets fartherer up the widerer part of the blade, at which point it will be hugely wider. It depends completely on the thickness of the blade.

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Originally Posted by BobH

OK, but not hugely wider then?

Bob

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Y U G E!! Y U G E L Y WIDE and it'll be GREATl!!!!:)

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Y U G E!! Y U G E L Y WIDE and it'll be GREATl!!!!:)

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Nope. No. No.
Attachment 252277

Get a vernier gauge, measure the thickness at thespine across three or four points, and then measure the height from the spine wear strip to the cutting edge and calculate. If the bevel could stand to have the edge reeled on and the spine kept as is, use tape, if the spine is already creating an obtuse bevel don't use tape for now... If Inhave to remove big chips on wedges or grind through pits to hit a bevel I usually calculate, see where I am and then go without for a time before defaulting back to one layer. I wouldn't personally go over two layers as tape is compressible. Onlu exception I make are for 18th century stubtails where the spine tends to be really thin.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Y U G E!! Y U G E L Y WIDE and it'll be GREATl!!!!:)

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Where have I heard that before. :hmmm: :hmmm: :rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2:

Bob

As mentioned, Many on our forum own dozens of razors, and I would not use the same razor twice in a fortnight. I used tape to preserve the appearance of the razor. So having a large number of razors, once the initial bevel is set, then it's unlikely that I am going to hone most of mine regularly. I don't own heaps, just 30 odd, and all I do nowadays is a touch up on a finishing hone. So the geometry of the razors stays fairly well intact. If I buy a vintage razor, or even a brand new one I tend to cut my own new bevel and hone it up. And inmost cases it might not see a stone in 6 or more months. I hear people saying it's a tool, not meant to be pretty. But in my opinion, razors are lovely things and my shaves don't suffer as a result.