Thread: Romancing the stone

As a wise man once said:

"Synthetic Hones are an exact science, Natural stones are a Romance, be sure you want start that love affair"

I have dipped my toe into the world of naturals this last year and have enjoyed experimenting with a Welsh slate, Nakayama Kiita and an Escher. Of the three I find the Escher the easiest to work with. The Nakayama on the other hand is a different beast, I have used a full nagura progression, a worn DMT card and water only all with great results, but not great results every time with every razor.

Now, id like to hear what everyone does when faced with a new natural. 10 - 20 laps on a synthetic finisher and your usually your good to go, not quite so with a natural. So what is everyones process? Do you start with water only or start with slurry? No right nor wrong answers here, it would be nice to hear everyones thought process when they have their new "baby" in front of them.


Mark

I have a set approach to a New Stone

I go with a standard work up to a "Known point" that point is different for each person and even over time for one person


At one time it was a shave ready Norton 8k level now it is a Chosera 10k for me

Once at that point, I start with a light slurry made on the Stone using a well worn DMT 325 usually 3-5 figure 8's worth of slurry.. I am looking to get a feel from the particles and the stone

I do about 20 laps dilute 20 laps dilute the maybe 10 perfect finishing laps... Test Shave after stropping on just Leather

I do the exact same routine every time on every new stone to establish my base (Oil Stone excepted) I like using the same exact razor too I have one that I have used for many years now..

There is no right or wrong way to establish that first base test, just as long as you are absolutely confident in it

Once you have that, you can adjust for effect depending on each different stone

When faced with a new natural, I set it down and back away. I've used a few naturals and never fell in love (to keep the analogy in tact). I got good edges and nice shaves. But once I got my hands on a Suehiro 20k, all of that came to an end.

Well, to a degree it depends on the natural and what I'm (hoping) to be able to achieve with it. If it's just a finisher, step 1 is of course lapping/polishing/burnishing the stone because I feel most naturals just perform better (finer) that way. Then take a blade honed to a known quantity and ensure it is shaving well like Gssixgun. For me that's a Norton 8K. I'll do a good 50 laps or so, 50 more if I think there's room to improve. Typically with just water, but I may follow up with shave lather for the second 50 laps. Then I'll strop per usual and shave test.

In the case of something like a coticule, where I'm hoping to be able to do diluticot/slurry/one stone honing and all that fun stuff with it the formula changes. One side of the stone will only be polished to 1K or so, and test razor initially honed to 1K as well. Then I'll work up a heavy slurry and begin the honing and diluting process. Once I'm ready for pure water, wash the stone and scrub with fingers to ensure there's no left over slurry then proceed to the water phase. 50 laps, check, repeat until improvement ceases. Strop and shave test as usual.

If the shave test bombs, that's when things get interesting.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I start with a light slurry made on the Stone using a well worn DMT 325 usually 3-5 figure 8's worth of slurry
I do about 20 laps dilute 20 laps dilute the maybe 10 perfect finishing laps... Test Shave after stropping on just leather

After reading countless posts and trying many ways this method seems to be the most consistant for me.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

When faced with a new natural, I set it down and back away. I've used a few naturals and never fell in love (to keep the analogy in tact). I got good edges and nice shaves. But once I got my hands on a Suehiro 20k, all of that came to an end.

If in doubt get the Gok 20 out!

My 2 cents on the topic.

I use J-Nats and here is my process.
*I compare to 20k Suehiro, because IMHO it is the most consistent and easy to use synthetic finisher out there

*After 1k I would do diamond slurry dilution to get an idea how fast the stone is. I'll also finish that way and see how it shaves.
*If the stone could not deliver the results I was looking for , I go to 5k and then nagura progression followed by tomonagura. That process should be foolproof with a finishing Jnat.
*Another approach would be to get to the highest synthetic before your synthetic finisher , for me that is the 10k superstone, and then finish on the Jnat with tomonagura only.
*After I have have figured out if the stone was promising to be a finisher, I would do some water only passes to see if it will be scratching the bevels. I will also find out if the stone can make the edge keener or not.
* If I have to finesse a stone to get results then it is not a finisher in my eyes.

All of the above I do access with a scope because I know what a fine finished Jnat bevel/edge looks like.

Consistency:
The test for consistency is the toughest because it requires statistics to be conclusive, that means mucho razors honed on the same stone.
I test with a Solingen, Japanese, Sheffield , and a GD razors. if all give good results then the hone is promising for consistency, but it takes a bunch more razors of each kind to be sure.

For me a top notch Jnat would posses the following characteristics, in order of importance to me:

Ultra fine
Does not scratch on water ( this is very important if I want that extra keenness)
speed (although I am fine with a slower stone, speed is preferred )
hardness (there are softer stones that are superb for razors too )


From my experience very few Jnats are the real deal when it comes to razors.

Lots of Jnats out there are tool stones, for planes and chisels. They are hard enough to not auto slurry but they are not as fine as what a razor hone would be. That is the stone limbo, because those are not great for knives because of hardness. Those are typically faster stones.

The soft Jnats that autoslurry or are very easy to slurry are stones that IMHO work great to bridge the 1k to finisher gap. Suita stones are a good example. Stones in that group are fast cutters.

The true razor hones are not so common because a combination of extreme fineness/ no scratchiness/ speed / hardness is not something that readily occurs in nature. I happen to have several that fit most of my criteria, with exception of speed , and one that covers all points. They are amazing stones.

IMO such stones are worth their weight in gold.

Interesting post. I too have "dipped my toe in" to the natural world this year (jeez, that makes it sound like skinny-dipping in the mud at Woodstock!).

And then I jumped in the deep end with JNATs, starting out with a Shoubodani "Pocket Rocket" from Keith at TomoNagura. And then I just had to have his complete JNAT kit, with Nakayama Asagi, and 4 Asano-stamped Mikawa nagura plus Tomo. (My wife thinks I've lost my mind!).

Now I don't have the experience with many and varied naturals like many of you, so don't have a repeatable testing process yet (though I may steal one of these). But I have gotten some of the smoothest edges I've ever achieved off of this Nakayama, taking a "shave-ready" razor through a Koma and then a Tomo slurry to finish. It's amazing to see that beautiful sparkly haze (and the resulting stellar shaves) after years of chasing mirror bevels on synthetics.

And to me, naturals are just far more interesting and engaging on a zen level. I don't count strokes, I just feel, listen and watch the slurry darken and "ride up" over the blade. You know you're there when it starts to "stick" to the stone. Why didn't I do this years ago?!

Ha! My wife thinks Ive lost my mind too when I use my nagura. She cant grasp how I get pleasure making a milky slurry and honing a razor.

I use a process somewhat similar to what Stefan uses.

I agree about the best of the best being a low percentage, and about one out of 6-7 that I buy are in the top-tier. I have 5-6 that I call 'superclass' stones, those that can make a supremely smooth edge, the shave lasts a long time, and that work on all steels equally well.

My starting point is a Gold Dollar 208 test razor. If the stone can produce an equally good HHT root-in or -out on a 208, it's promising that it will do well with most carbon steels. I don't worry too much about speed, I think polishing action is important and as long as the edge comes up with a normal honing routine I'm happy. Probably the only real way to measure a stone's speed is on diamond slurry, counting strokes, and looking at how fast previous striae are replaced by finer ones.

Usually I don't do a lot of clear water finishing except on softer stones, like a really good smooth yellow kiita that also polishes a lot. Most yellow kiita are not top shelf razor hones, but a few of them will surprise you if you add 25 or so clear water finishing strokes after your normal routine. But not many unfortunately. Darker kiita, the 'egg' color and the brownish kiita are another story. My top tier razor hones will finish like I want off thin slurry - when I begin my honing session on fresh slurry, I can see the edge through the slurry and this is what I normally use though some harder stones need thicker slurry to tame the aggressiveness of the edge a little. I very much agree with Stefan that if you need circus honing to finesse a good shave out of your hone, you probably need a better stone.

I have a few tomo nagura, most that I have cut myself, that work very well with most stones and after the initial Gold Dollar run I'll start playing with them depending on the stone hardness. I'll also start moving on to my user grade Japanese, Sheffield, German razors but There's usually not too much difference in the carbon steel results. Finally, I'll test the stone on some fine razors, and the acid test is a Puma Inox. If the HHT is silent root-in or -out on all carbons and the Puma, I likely have another 'super class' stone.

Harder stones are more likely to be better razor hones than softer ones, though that doesn't seem to apply as much to those 5-6 super class stones, they're all stupid fine but some like the two karasu are harder than the dull kiita.

I can get a pretty decent shaving edge even out of a better grade tool or knife hone, but it takes some doing and even then the edge is not the same as good razor hone.

Those super class stones are worth their weight in gold because there's no way to identify them, even from respected sellers who test their stones. You just have to wade through them and test them yourself. I do tend to feel that most of not all of them are Nakayama, out of the best I have, at least 4 are Nakayama by virtue of skin and/or stamp. None have been full bench (yet) and stamps don't seem to increase the percentage much but I might think differently if I were willing to shell out the money for stamped bench stones.

It's a lot of fun, but sifting the stock for the jewels is time consuming, expensive, and frequently frustrating. The chase is part of the fun, and that odd sized 150x90 shohonyama I posted a day or two ago is very close, still testing it.

Cheers, Steve