Thread: trouble honing

Bevel set. Yes. If you have a bevel, you should be able to shave. It will be a scratchy shave and I doubt you'll want to leave the edge like that but it should remove hair. Tape. Its not a cheat or a crutch. Think of it as a correction. Whatever you have to accomplish without it you still need to do with it. If you don't cut that bevel, tape or no tape, you won't be able to shave. But if you've ground away enough steel to rightfully expect a good bevel and the edge isn't holding, tape can correct that by adjusting your angle. There's no point in using it unnecessarily, but if/when you do know that its not a cheat.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

“I have set the bevel 1K, verified by microscope.”

Chet, why do you not want to use tape?

How did you, verify the bevel was set, and which stones are you using?

Post some photos of the razor, both sides of the blade.

I don't want to use tape because I want to accomplish a hone without it. I know the principal behind it. Shouldn't all straights be able to be honed with out tape? I use king 1k, norton 4k and 8k and naniwa 12k. I verified (I thought) by so so topping arm hairs. I am at work so I cant send photos

Chet, first, put 2 layers of tape on the spine.

When you are new to honing, most new honers use way too much pressure and do way too many laps, and are needlessly grinding the spine. Tape will protect the spine, until you fully understand the process.

If you have not been using tape, you probably already have ground off at least one thickness of tape from the spine, so you need 2.

Lap your stones and round or bevel the edges. Ink the bevel, colored ink is easier to see, can easily be seen with the naked eye.

Now taped, inked, and on flat stones, do one lap and look at the bevels, where is the ink coming off?

If you are not reaching the edge and or not making full contact on the bevels, do circles in sets of 20, looking at the bevels after each set. Re-ink after each set and continue with circles, until all the ink is remove to the edge.

Now at 60x, look straight down on the edge, if you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting, do another set until they meet.

Once meeting, put new tape on the spine, 2 layers, reink the bevels and do X strokes, until all the circle stria is gone and you have a nice even stria pattern.

Re-check the edge by looking straight down on it with 60x. Try to get the edge as straight as possible, (micro-chip free) by using light pressure doing x strokes. Keep an eye on the tape and change at the slightest burn through or if you feel the razor get sticky on the stone.

Once you get the edge as perfect as possible, the bevel is set. Put new tape on the spine, ink the bevels and do circles, in sets of 20 on the 4k, until all the 1k stria is gone. Then do X strokes to remove the circle stria.

Work up the progression with circles, removing each stria pattern from the previous stone and finish with X strokes. Use a bit of pressure on the circle and less with each stone in the progression.

Here is post with excellent micrographs, of what you should be seeing at each step in the progression, especially a fully bevel set edge.

It is a bit long, but post 42, page 9, Photos 4 & 5 (upper right hand corner) show and edge that is close, (not fully set). Post 51, page 11, first photo, shows a fully set bevel.


Second try at Honing.

Originally Posted by Chet

I don't want to use tape because I want to accomplish a hone without it. I know the principal behind it. Shouldn't all straights be able to be honed with out tape? I use king 1k, norton 4k and 8k and naniwa 12k.

Yes in theory in a perfect world

But over the years and the Half Million posts about honing we have boiled down the problems that most new honers have..

So we all give the general; answers that help the majority of people get to their first successful honing..

We know that new guys generally miss the bevel set
We know the in general they use excessive pressure
We know most don't even know what torque is let alone how to use it
We know that they are unfamiliar with the tests and how to use them
Heaven forbid a new guy takes a New DE blade and at least takes the time to understand how a known edge performs with the "Sharp Tests"
We know that in general the idea of watching the ripple of water at the front edge of the bevel takes time to learn how to read that.
We know these things because we have answered these questions 1000's of times, we have sat across the table from new honers and watch the mistakes made.

So yes the razor should be able to be honed without tape and I am willing to bet once you have honed a few and learn even half of the hints posted here you will be able to do that

But right now you are probably just wasting steel and chasing the edge

As mentioned already, a solid bevel set will produce a surprisingly smooth shave, and until you get the bevel set you are simply wasting steel and time

Bevel Bevel Bevel it really is all about getting a solid bevel set

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yes in theory in a perfect world

But over the years and the Half Million posts about honing we have boiled down the problems that most new honers have..

So we all give the general; answers that help the majority of people get to their first successful honing..

We know that new guys generally miss the bevel set
We know the in general they use excessive pressure
We know most don't even know what torque is let alone how to use it
We know that they are unfamiliar with the tests and how to use them
Heaven forbid a new guy takes a New DE blade and at least takes the time to understand how a known edge performs with the "Sharp Tests"
We know that in general the idea of watching the ripple of water at the front edge of the bevel takes time to learn how to read that.
We know these things because we have answered these questions 1000's of times, we have sat across the table from new honers and watch the mistakes made.

So yes the razor should be able to be honed without tape and I am willing to bet once you have honed a few and learn even half of the hints posted here you will be able to do that

But right now you are probably just wasting steel and chasing the edge

As mentioned already, a solid bevel set will produce a surprisingly smooth shave, and until you get the bevel set you are simply wasting steel and time

Bevel Bevel Bevel it really is all about getting a solid bevel set

Thanks Glen
I ended up taping and came out great. I give up on the no tape method. I watched your video when instructed a gentleman how to hone. Very helpful

@Chet...I think that was his video of me. I believe Glen was very pleased that I made most (if not all) of the typical beginning honing mistakes. I'm sure the pressure of performing in front of the camera helped his goal, and I'm forever grateful and honored that he was so gracious with his hands-on lessons.

Looking back on the experience, I see why knowing what not to do is almost more valuable to beginners than seeing a pro make zero mistakes. You remember more clearly what errors to avoid.

How is your honing skills now? Can you hone without tape?

Even though I have not been honing the entire time since that video was shot, I feel that my honing skills are at the intermediate range or slightly better. Of the 14 blades that I own, only one gives me a certain amount of difficulty. It's a smiling fixed blade yet its spine is straight and not curved to match the blade. As such, swooping and rolling X-strokes are required. Using those strokes with a light hand, I was still getting some micro-chipping and had to read about jointing/killing techniques in the Advanced Honing forum in order to get the blade right after my 3rd go. Do note that I didn't bother with 2 layers of tape and kept to the one as I always do.

As for taping, I figure if tape works for 'meisters like Glen and CelticCrusader, it's fine for me as well. I've never had any interest in learning to hone without tape.

My biggest issue is keeping HAD at bay. I desire to get an SG 20k and possibly a Jnat at some point. For now, I settle with the very fine Naniwa Super Stones and an Escher finisher. I italicized the word 'settle' because I'm sure I can get better results with the stones I have now simply by further improving my strokes.

Glen's 3-part YouTube series with Naniwa stones provides some excellent tips and techniques if you have not seen them. As Glen mentions, knowing how to gauge the TNT/TPT will give a great feeling for whether the blade is ready to move beyond the bevel-setting stage. After the TNT, just give the blade a few more strokes then move to the next hone. Some guys also rely on HHT tests here, but I perform a rough arm hair shave test instead (mostly due to impatience).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2E9sovmb0Y

One last comment about the blade pushing water across the hone. This is a great visual indicator as to whether the bevel is properly set or not. If the bevel is there, the water will push out evenly from the edge of the blade across the entire span of the blade against the stone. If you have any trouble spots, you will see lags in the wave of water or no water pushing at various points instead.

In that first Naniwa video, he also shows how to put some very light downward pressure on the blade (above the trouble spot) with the index finger of your off hand to get a dull spot to come around. This is a very handy trick!