Thread: Nicks only visible with 60x microscope & loupe= More Bread knifing?

Hello fine gentleman and all members of this incredible useful website.

I come to you seeking guidance regarding honing my first ever SR (Might as well start using the jargon) . I opted for a J.A Henckels 401 on Ebay for 25 bucks. I currently only own a King 1k/6k stone. When it arrived, there was a pretty clean bevel already on the blade. There were no nicks visible with the naked eye. However, when I looked closer with my 60x microscope, I could see approximately 8 miniscule knicks when looking from heel to toe. After practicing with standard back and forth strokes on the 6k side, the nicks weren't going anywhere.

I decided to try and remove them with the 1k side, knowing that I could potentially alter the bevel set by the previous owner. I used the "circle method" described in one Lynn Abrams honing tutorials on Youtube to try to set the bevel. Well, after all that now I have what I think is referred to as a "double bevel" on my blade. There is the old bevel, and then there is my new bevel which isn't quite as straight and clean as the old one. This double bevel seems to have drastically increase the shaving ability of the blade somehow, but the nicks still remain.

I only learned about the "bread knifing" tactic afterwards, and I came here to seek advice as to whether that is what I should do to remove the tiny nicks. Before I put a new bevel, I could barely shave with it because it tugged so much and I cut myself a few times. With the new second bevel, I was able to get a decent shave with it after doing 40 X-strokes on the 6k side and stropping on a piece of leather from an old suitcase.

To make a long story short, I've already ordered a 10,000 grit stone, but in the mean time I need to figure out whether these minuscule nicks should be removed. If you guys say it's not a big deal or impediment to shaving than I might just do nothing for now and try polishing with the 10k and shaving when it comes.

I know it's probably difficult to help without pictures. I will try to post some but it's incredibly hard to take pictures of the nicks themselves seeing as they can only be seen with a 60x loupe/ microscope.

Thanks so much for all the help,

Regards,

Philip the Newbhoner

Hi Philip. Welcome to SRP!

To get rid of those small nicks, you will need to run the razor's edge along the corner edge of your 1k stone. Do so very lightly as described in posts you can search here. If they are as small as you say, it should only take a few strokes to get rid of them. Then you can reset your bevel and move up, finishing on your 10k once it arrives.

There are some posts in the Advanced Honing Topics sub-forum section atop this forum that will help you out. Sometimes breadknifing is also called "killing the edge" or "jointing." I was there recently myself when a troublesome blade kept developing micro-chips while honing. You can also search on "microchips." Good luck, and don't use too much pressure to get there.

Is the new bevel at the edge or away from the edge?

Are you using tape? As a beginning honer you really should tape the spine.

You don't need to kill or joint the edge to remove the nicks. You need to hone them out.

Thanks Speedster and Utopian. I already tried to "hone them out" @Utopian with approx 40 circle strokes on 1k and 6k sides of the combo stone. I assumed that was enough and I'm just about convinced that Speedster is correct in saying the next step of killing the edge is required. If I were to try and hone them out, should I do so with the 1k or 6k side? I was originally going to use tape but then I figured the original person probably didn't so what the heck. @Utopian, how many circle/ X-strokes does it take you/should it take me to remove several small microchips from a good quality carbon steel blade like this one (I understand that's probably hard to answer but in terms of time, is it normal for that to take 20 minutes, 40 minutes, and hour, or five minutes? Lastly, would you apply a fair amount of pressure to remove those microchips or would you simply do light strokes?

Thanks again so much!

It really would help if you could address the questions I asked above. Your answers will help us get you in the right direction.

Sorry, a re-read of your post indicates you did not use tape. That would suggest that you are heading for problems. I would guess that your fresh bevel is not near the edge. Is that correct?

While I'm waiting for an answer, I'll try to jump ahead for you.

First, as a beginning honer, you really should use tape. When you are considering "20 minutes, 40 minutes, and hour" of honing, please understand that can produce decades of hone wear on the spine. Until you become much better at honing, a bit of tape prevents irreparable damage.

You said that you had a double bevel after you honed the razor. If you and the prior honer both did not use tape, then there should be no double bevel.

If the previous honer did use tape and you did not, then you honed at a lower angle and your bevel should be the one farther away from the edge. If that is the case, then your honing has not yet had any effect on the edge at all yet. That is why I am asking where your fresh bevel is located relative to the double bevel.

Originally Posted by Utopian

While I'm waiting for an answer, I'll try to jump ahead for you.

First, as a beginning honer, you really should use tape. When you are considering "20 minutes, 40 minutes, and hour" of honing, please understand that can produce decades of hone wear on the spine. Until you become much better at honing, a bit of tape prevents irreparable damage.

You said that you had a double bevel after you honed the razor. If you and the prior honer both did not use tape, then there should be no double bevel.

If the previous honer did use tape and you did not, then you honed at a lower angle and your bevel should be the one farther away from the edge. If that is the case, then your honing has not yet had any effect on the edge at all yet. That is why I am asking where your fresh bevel is located relative to the double bevel.

Sorry for the delayed response and thank you for clarifying what you meant about the bevel being closer/further from the edge. In fact, the new edge I created is the one closest to the edge. It is "at the edge". It is for this reason that I believe there was such a noticeable difference in how easily it would shave. It's difficult for me to know what "razor sharp" is since I've never seen or used a professionally honed razor. I should probably mention that at no point did I have any significant grey matter build up on either side of my 1k/6k stone. I only applied a small amount of pressure on the 1k side and even then I didn't produce as much metal shavings as I had seen on several youtube videos. If I understand correctly, I must have somehow honed at a higher angle? I imagine the typical mistake is the opposite motion of pressing too hard on the spine and consequently sharpening at a lower angle, creating the double bevel?

Thanks again,

Originally Posted by NewBhoner

Sorry for the delayed response and thank you for clarifying what you meant about the bevel being closer/further from the edge. In fact, the new edge I created is the one closest to the edge. It is "at the edge". It is for this reason that I believe there was such a noticeable difference in how easily it would shave. It's difficult for me to know what "razor sharp" is since I've never seen or used a professionally honed razor. I should probably mention that at no point did I have any significant grey matter build up on either side of my 1k/6k stone. I only applied a small amount of pressure on the 1k side and even then I didn't produce as much metal shavings as I had seen on several youtube videos. If I understand correctly, I must have somehow honed at a higher angle? I imagine the typical mistake is the opposite motion of pressing too hard on the spine and consequently sharpening at a lower angle, creating the double bevel?

Thanks again,

First, what is the 10k hone that you ordered?

OK, so you just had to complicate it with having your bevel being closer to the edge even though you did not use tape.

That means that you are honing with your blade at a higher (more obtuse) angle than the previous honing. I don't have a good explanation for that given that you are not using tape. Regardless, if you are willing, I strongly advise you to use electrical tape on the spine in order for you to prevent hone wear on the spine. Just be sure to replace it regularly if it shows any sign of wear.

Here is a short video of taping the spine. It shows the application of two layers of tape, but you only need one.



As long as your honing of the bevels is as you describe and the bevels are on the edge side of the double bevel, then the double bevel mystery does not need to be solved. Just do more of what you have done, with or without tape. Since you have the loupe, are you certain that your fresh bevels are extending all the way to form an edge? One way to check for this is to look straight down on the edge with a bright light overhead. If the bevels meet to form a complete edge, there should be no reflection of light. If they do not, then there will be reflected light. That is, a fully formed edge will have the bevels meet in a crisp "V" while an incomplete edge will be a "U" that still has a reflective surface. Odds are good that the nicks in the edge will be visible in this manner by reflecting light.

You can continue to do circles, but as a beginner I think you are better off trying to do perfect x-strokes. Since you did improve the shave, you must be on the right track. Because it somewhat was able to shave, I'd be tempted to suggest you stick the 6k. Because you said there are nicks in the blade, I'd want to suggest that you go back down to the 1k. Since I cannot see your edge, I suggest you use your own best judgment.

Is there any chance that you could show photos of your blade with close-ups of the bevels?

Previous honer was using too much pressure/torque, the edge deflected on the stone. Only way I can see it possible his new edge is at a higher angle.

That would also explain why the razor is wantin to chip. Steel at the edge stressed too much and fractured.

Whether you joint the edge or not, the same amount of steel has to go to get to the base of the chips. I'm tempted to think it's a placebo at best, because it forces you to be patient and completely reset the bevel without temptation to call it 'good enough' and leave the stones early.

Don't fall into the "I did 40 circles, it should be good!" trap. When first setting the bevel, you have to do what it takes to get the blade ready to move on. That may be 40 laps, it may be 400. It may be more than that. Do what the edge needs to work the chips out, then move forward.

If they're small enough they can't be seen without magnification, I'd try using the 6k to sneak up on the edge. If you can see any hint of them without magnification, I'd stick with the 1k until they were gone.

All good advice so far, I would add one thing: check the tape on the spine for wear as you hone and replace it as soon as the wear becomes visible. If you let the tape wear, it changes the bevel angle and will move the point of contact away from the edge. If you feel the need to count strokes, laps, etc., then do it as a reminder to check your tape for wear.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk