Thread: Short stones/strokes - More Control? Less Burr?

Gentlemen,

I've been meaning to post on this topic because Iwasaki of course mentions a honyama burr and removing it, but also because of comments from others, most recently srdjan in post #13 on the 'towel' thread, and using shorter strokes, especially to finish seems to be an interesting topic.

A while back on another forum, Eric Kretz mentioned that long strokes on a jnat could cause a burr to develop that he could see or begin to see with a microscope, and that shorter strokes reduced or eliminated it. Eric, please correct me if I am wrong or mis-speaking, it's been some time ago. A different individual posted on that forum indicating that he thought better control was maintained with shorter strokes possibly leading to better results.

I like using the 'leather' size jnats, nominally 136x80mm but wanted to ask if people here feel the same way about shorter hones/strokes, what they feel makes shorter strokes better (or not), and how they implement those strokes while honing. Typically if I'm using a full-size or size 60 stone, I'll reduce the stroke length and pressure for the last half of the final finishing.

Any input would be appreciated!

Cheers, Steve

I finish with short, what I call V strokes (short strokes with a large linear component).

Using a mind experiment it is easy to see how honing on an extremely long hone would lead to the formation of a burr.

Hi Steve! I will only just slightly modify your recollection - IIRC I made that statement regarding very quick-cutting, grit-rich JNats used with very little or no slurry. Then occasionally I see that result. I definitely see it more often with synthetic hones.

I also find that finishing with short, alternating strokes is the best route to finishing burr-free for me. As far as I'm concerned it's only common sense that shorter strokes will produce less burr/wire formation. If you think about it, a very long stroke of several feet on one side of the blade only would tend to produce a massive burr/wire. It only makes sense that very short, alternating strokes would be the best and easiest way to eliminate one.

Following a similarly-sized hard coticule, I've been using a 1-3/8" x 3" honyama with water as a finisher. Short strokes indeed. This seems to necessitate a laterally-biassed, rolling X-stroke. Seems to work well for me. No problems with a burr there.

Alternating strokes will not easily create a burr.
If you're getting a burr on a razor you're using a bunch of pressure or doing many strokes on one side or honing past the meeting of the 2 sides. This is more likely at bevel set.

Iwasaki did use a fair bit of pressure in early stages but that's not such a bad thing to get things rolling.

Of course, if you're restoring an edge that gets sharp at some points earlier than others a burr can also develop but I doubt the size of the stone plays a major part.

We can't really theorise about stones that are several feet in length

I see burrs being relative to pressure & not the length of the hone or a short stroke on a long hone.

Most of my honing is done on 8 x 3 inch (200 x 75 mm) or larger stones and I can't say I've run into a lot of burrs. Like onimaru55 said, mostly at bevel set with a lot of pressure and many strokes on one side. And that's a non issue because on the rare occasion I DO create a burr, it's knocked off before moving on to the next hone with a handful of edge leading X strokes.

Preference kind of depends on what I'm doing though. If I'm doing a full bevel set or working with slurry, I want a wider longer hone so I can get a full stroke and keep more slurry atop the hone. If I'm just tweaking an edge that just recently fell off, a small 5-6 x 2 inch (125-150 x 50 mm) stone or barber hone might be all that's warranted.

My theory and why I use shorter strokes hasn't got a lot to do with wire formation, as I, like Onimaru don't see the wire form that easily on a natural stone. I can't deny though, you gentlemen make some valid points, both regarding low grit and high grit stones.

My observation has been that, when you use a short stroke, it's like you have to think about the flip, almost as soon as you start the stroke. Getting into that mindset means the body (hand) will follow... and automagically, the pressure gets reduced. I think this is what Iwasaki had in mind when he said "the pressure seems to reduce with shorter strokes". JMHO of course - it's a state of mind as well.

Originally Posted by Srdjan

My theory and why I use shorter strokes hasn't got a lot to do with wire formation, as I, like Onimaru don't see the wire form that easily on a natural stone. I can't deny though, you gentlemen make some valid points, both regarding low grit and high grit stones.

My observation has been that, when you use a short stroke, it's like you have to think about the flip, almost as soon as you start the stroke. Getting into that mindset means the body (hand) will follow... and automagically, the pressure gets reduced. I think this is what Iwasaki had in mind when he said "the pressure seems to reduce with shorter strokes". JMHO of course - it's a state of mind as well.

the lightest possible pressure is achieved by short slow stroke IMHO.

Originally Posted by mainaman

the lightest possible pressure is achieved by short slow stroke IMHO.

That was the opinion expressed in the Iwasaki treatise as well. The shorter the stroke, the lighter the pressure.