Here's a thought..!
I have a Dovo that was doing the same thing. Come to find they didn't grind out enough of the shoulder/ stabilizer on one side, so it kept the edge off the stone.
Might be something to look at besides a warp.
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Here's a thought..!
I have a Dovo that was doing the same thing. Come to find they didn't grind out enough of the shoulder/ stabilizer on one side, so it kept the edge off the stone.
Might be something to look at besides a warp.
In reading through this thread again, l think it might be helpful if someone would properly describe "swooping."
+ 1 :)
I don't see alot of difference with the 45° X stroke. Can only imagine that the start is the same, and when halfway the stone you "swoop" the blade towards the right corner?
I don't know if this is what "swooping" is but it is what I do. Start with the blade heel forward heel in contact with the hone to avoid starting with the blade on the stabilizer should the blade have one. As you go forward draw the blade towards the toe slightly lifting the blade as you go. That should move the contact point of the blade and hone continuously down the edge toward the toe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Hope that description made some kind of sense as it is easier to do than describe for me.
Bob
Basically what BobH said, minus the lifting toward the toe. I'm sure I do it, but it isn't exactly intentional. Kind of the same stroke you'd have to use on a short barber hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Mikali - I do recall it taking a while to sort out. Mostly because I was new to honing. Just don't let it frustrate you too much. To borrow another piece of advice from Gssixgun, sometimes the best thing you can do is put the blade down and come back around to it later when your mind is right.
I don't use the term myself. But it was used in the course of our discussion here. I took it to be a rolling X-stroke, applied with gusto.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I honed a TI yesterday with some uneven wear and a slight frown, I took pics that came out "Okay" will try and get them up for you when I get back home later
The thing you have to understand is all these stupid stroke names really mean "Nutin Honey" it is all honing gymnastics to keep that small ripple of water/oil at the front of the edge or riding up on the blade face (Higher Grits) evenly and equally across the hone..
X
Swooping
Axe
Rocking
Rolling
Wiper
45° heel forward
Blah Blah Blah
All total BS, and yes I was dumb enough to actually name a couple of those 9-10 years ago :p
It isn't a set stroke it just gives a general impression of the stroke you are doing to keep that Ripple even
Now when doing corrections, this is where it gets difficult because all that stuff you have read about No Pressure, weight of the blade etc etc is tossed to the side.. If you want to correct a bevel you have to use selective / directed pressure to make the bevel conform to your wishes
or
Honing is really easy,,, right up until it isn't :)
AMEN :chapeauQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Today I let my Dovo rest.
Picked up a "Prima Solingen", and gave it the full progress from 1K till 20K.
The wave went to the spine of the blade the entire way, besides 1 very small area at the toe on one side.
I really wasn't in the mood for any correcting so I did proceed after the bevel set.
Tomorrow it's shave test time and we'll see what that toe says.
In the evening tomorrow I'll pick up the Dovo again, persistance is key ;-)
Hey Bruno, could you please add an emoji, something like this one,Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
:brunoisright
but with the above quote?
:roflmao
Personally, I think that would be extremely helpful!
Ok went back to the dovo. Gave it some cirkes with extra attention to the toe and middle. Then used 45 degree x strokes with a swoop. Used sharpie a lot to see if I was hitting the entire blade. After the 1k, positive TNT and AHT but uneven wave of water, I decided to progress anyway. By the end the edge was picking armhair mid air, so curious for the test shave in the morning...
And as expected it wasn't the most comfortable shave.
Now I was wondering, if like me, you spend like 45 minutes from bevel set to finish, isn't there going something wrong?
Ok the bevel is done when the bevel is done, but if after 15 minutes there is no positive progression, does this not mean one should come up with another approach?
Like for instance doing more cirkels, other kind of X strokes?
If you have a problem blade with a frown, twists, warps, uneven grinds...the time expectations go out the window.
No need to change the stroke. Doing as Gssixgun recommended will yield the right results. Just need to be patient with it until the edge comes together completely.
Sometimes that can be the hardest part.
Even more Ideas :)
hehehe You would almost think many others have been down this path before you :p
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...bing-over.html
Wise words from the past
"You know Honing isn't Rocket Science"
"Yeah right because science is qualified by repeatable results"
"This is much more like "Quantum Entanglement" "
PS "Honing is easy, Right up until it isn't" ~ Glen aka gssixgun ca 2008 :D
Mehehe most important thing is fun right 😊
I'm now on the 1k and THINK I nailed it, or something at least. Began with 2 layers of tape and 40 circles each side. Then wen to 45 degree x strokes and check with TNT every 5. All went well but noticed the heel was behind. Pushed it only twice and bazinga, resulting in an even push of water over the entire way, for the very first time. Now on to the 2k...
Oh? Are there really other bad warped, frowned razors 😁
It's challenging, so it's fun!
Id recommend getting a Gold Dollar, far less issues....
Sorry, couldn't help it :p
Cheaper as a Dovo for sure heheQuote:
Originally Posted by markbignosekelly
I do have another question regarding the use of 2 layers of tape: when do you remove a layer? Or do you keep on honing with 2 all the way till finish?
Refresh top layer often, use 2 start to finish. If you remove one you'll be honing the shoulder, not the edge. It probably won't take long to make it all the way to the edge but it's still extra strokes. Some folks add a layer on their final stone for a micro bevel, I've never seen any reason to remove them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikali
As tape wears it may lower your angle and leave you honing shoulder not edge, and it wears much faster than I anticipated at any rate.
Test shaved this morning, WTG went well, no pulling and removed hair.
ATG was pulling and not comfortable. Sooo we go at it again one of this days ...
First will try one of my easier razors, to keep me motivated ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikali
That is EXACTLY what I do
I will mess with a problem razor for no more than 3 attempts at a bevel set, then it goes to the back of the line up and I hone a few more, keeps me motivated and happy :D
Here I am again :)
Finally managed to have an even "wave" in front of the edge on the 1K.
It also pops 1 hair on the arm at all 3 points.
Also the TNT feels smooth and digs in. This make me THINK the bevel is set, however there is no undercut, only the "puddle" of water moving evenly.
So when is it ok to proceed to the next shapton stone? I've read and watched a lot and there is the undercut and there is the "suction" feeling that should tell the progression.
Are both indicators required on the 1K or at a later stage?
you should be experiencing suction if both blade and hone are aligned perfectly...i think you should not be expecting suction...
I'd be interested in hearing about the necessity of under cutting water and suction while honing. In all honesty I have never felt suction while honing and only occasionally see under cutting of water myself.
Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
1: it's good to hear I'm not the only one :pQuote:
Originally Posted by BobH
2: how do you then know when to progress? As far as my logic tells me, there isn't a fixed number of strokes as every razor is different, as is every stone ...
If the bevel is set, then each progression is done with a loupe.
Look at the scratch marks on the edge, after the 1000 bevel setting...alls even? If so, next stone. Hone till all you see are the scratches from that hone, then next stone., so on so on.
Till your thru all the stones.
About as simple as I can explain it. It gets easier with experience, and time.
And above all, Have fun, experiment, have patience.
Just like a new born, we rock, we stand, we toddle n fall, before we can walk, let alone run. Sounds as you've got your feet well under you, and are taking your first steps quite well, so it won't be long before your running thru the house.
Keep at it, and know your limitations. [emoji106]
When the blade is not straight and has a bit of smile o it it cannot make full contact with a perfecty fat stone so water might sip in in some areas...between the blade and stone. you should still be able to se a small wave sign in front of the contact area.Quote:
Originally Posted by outback
Also you cant expect vave sine as positive as with a straight edge razor....less mettal touches the hone at one time and friction is less...
Suction pops up when the balde and hone are in intimate contact and drag is dramaticaly increased.
Anyway...there are objective methods of testing. iw you got and edge of the bevel setter.
- saphire marker and loupe...check the edge under magnification and as outback said make sure the scratch marks go all the way to the edge.
- look at the blde edge in various light angles and see that it does not reflect light...a rounded edge or a dull spot reflect light...also a wire edge.
- i usualy test by shaving arm hair after the 1k although few ppl agree to the "bald hand" technique:)
After you start progresion i think outback put it pretty clearly ... just erase the previous scratch marks without creating a wire edge...dull spot etc.
Hair cutting ability usualy improves to hair poppig at 2-5k and treatoping hairs upwards of 8k.... positive HHt should b expected also after a well honed north of 8k.
my 2 cens.
I am only curious about the under cutting and suction being necessary because I still get good smooth 4 pass shaves for my self off the razors I hone for myself. I set a bevel and hone as outback suggests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikali
Bob
So you are using the scratch pattern as a guidance for your progression then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
Basically yes. Setting the bevel I check and see if I am reaching the edge all along the blade and that the two bevels meet all along the blade. All that is done with a loupe and goose neck light to inspect the edge. If you aren't sure if you are reaching the edge, that is where the magic marker trick comes in. It makes it easier to see if you are missing getting to the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikali
Once I am satisfied that the two bevels meet I will see if it easily cuts arm hair all along the edge. If it doesn't back to the bevel setter for a few strokes and check again. If it cuts all along the edge it is off to the next hone and so on till the finisher. You can have a brilliantly polished bevel and still not quite have the bevel set. Getting the bevel set is the most important part of the honing, all else is just refining the initial edge.
That is the simplified version. With blades with problems it takes a lot longer to learn how to read them and learn how to deal with their problems. Blades with problems are not easy to hone.
Bob
I just recently started to watch water for undercutting. For the longest time I was only looking at stria and what I saw under the loupe. The technique doesn't really work with a Norton 1K, the stone needs to be re-wet by the 10th stroke. Is the blade undercutting because the bevel meets, or is it simply doing that because my stroke is fast and the wave rode up the blade? Sometimes it can be tough to read. It's interesting, but not as definitive as flipping the blade up and looking directly down at the edge under a loupe to see if the bevel meets. Such is my opinion at any rate, someone with a more steady even paced stroke might be better at reading the wave than I am and find it a more useful tool.
Suction is hit and miss. Some blades do it. Some don't. Some hones do it, some don't. If I take a straight bladed razor to my coticule I can get it to stick. I've never felt that on a Welsh Slate or my Arkansas stones, at least not while using water. Nothing sticks to the Norton 1K or 4K, they're too porous, and the 8K only gets a tiny bit of drag. I've never felt a smiling razor stick to anything. But suction doesn't tell you anything about whether or not your edges meet, only that your hone has likely polished all that it can as the two surfaces are now so flat that surface contact (thus friction) between them is maximized.
I actively try to prevent suction as that leads to skipping/chattering and that, in my opinion at least, could be detrimental to my honing efforts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikali
The trick of the system is that as the edge gets more refined (Higher Gits / Smoother slurry) the ripple will undercut all by itself..
It doesn't tell you how sharp your edge is, it tells you how smooth your stoke is, and if you are using enough pressure while honing
If that ripple goes bye bye you are not honing the edge you are just wasting steel behind the edge,, There are two forces combining at the edge while honing..
We tend to not talk about one because most people don't understand it
Downward pressure Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah we have all heard it over and over
But Torque is actually the important one and you can read both by "Riding the Wave"
But no,, the idea that the wave or even suction (Which doesn't happen on all grinds) can determine keenness ain't gonna happen
ps: One of the funniest things I remember reading on SRP back in the old days and I can't remember who said it :(
"Dude I can hone just fine, I just need to learn when to stop"
[QUOTE=gssixgun;
But Torque is actually the important one and you can read both by "Riding the Wave"
Exactly, Glenn.
Too much downward pressure causes excessive spine wear. But torque to the edge, with just enough downward pressure to keep the blade flat is the key. I'm trying to shave a slice out of the stone, not spreading butter.
[QUOTE=outback;1760337][QUOTE=gssixgun;
But Torque is actually the important one and you can read both by "Riding the Wave"
Exactly, Glenn.
Too much downward pressure causes excessive spine wear. But torque to the edge, with just enough downward pressure to keep the blade flat is the key. I'm trying to shave a slice out of the stone, not spreading butter.[/QUOTE]
Aha, but that wording I like, "slicing", will give that "visualization" a try.
Ok, good to read it doesn't/shouldn't happen on all grits. I was kinda waiting for it LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I figure I will try to see more through my loupe as well, because in all honestly I must admit I can't see much difference in scratch patterns yet ... it all looks the same, scratches, nicely uniform ...
I'm actually starting to think I might be overhoning.
:rofl2: :roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Mikali...I think Glenn meant it does not happen on all GRINDS not GRITS...and that is understandable and logic...learn things right ok:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikali
DFS, DFS, D F S gentlemen!
What did I change this time?
- lightning ! Now I could actually watch the water, and the edge with my 20x loupe
- torque, this was what I was lacking, for sure ! even on the higher grits I thought no pressure, just rest the razor and "pet" the stone.
Not ... Lightly torque the razor made all of the difference, after 10 strokes I finally felt this drag
Long story short, went all the way till the 20K (something odd there but I'll let it be for now), stropped and shaved.
This time even ATG in my neck went well, could be smoother but it was quite good and the alum did no sting :D
I would very much want to thank everyone for participating in my topic, and for the great help and advice !
It feels wonderful to finally have accomplished "it".
PS: in a couple of months I look back at this thread and most likely will be thinking to myself, you have only discovered the tip of the iceberg :D
The scratch pattern made by a bevel setting hone is deeper and coarser than the higher grit hones. The scratch pattern should extent out to the edge. If it does not you are not honing the edge. The two bevels must meet all along the edge so that the edge reflects no light when viewed with a loupe under a strong light source. When that happens the bevel is set and should cut arm hairs all along the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikali
Then you go to the next hone and erase all the heavy scratches/stria made by the bevel setter. The shallower less coarse scratch marks of the new hone should extent to the edge also. The edge examined under a loupe and strong light source should not reflect light. When that happens you go to the next higher grit hone and so on till you finish on you finishing hone. By that time the bevels should appear polished and the edge still does not reflecting light.
As you go up the progression you use less and less pressure/torque.
Bob
Good to see you got it. I type too slow.