Thread: Why do I get better edges with tape?

Some of the guys here have been honing a lot longer than I have, but I always am able to get great edges without using tape as long as the blade grind is extra hollow, full hollow or bellied. With half hollow and quarter hollow blades, honing without tape can be done; but because the bevel width is wider than with a full hollow, it takes a lot longer to hone all the way to the apex. With a wider bevel, the pressure of the hone is distributed across a wider surface, so the PSI is lower and the effectiveness is lower. To compensate, you have to either apply more pressure, or hone for more strokes. Of course, if you have a full wedge, you have to remove metal from the entire surface of the blade unless you use one or more layers of tape.

I like to do a touch up honing on a finishing stone every few shaves (just a few strokes). Thus, I would rather not use tape unless I have to do so; it is just an extra step I try to avoid. Also remember that the vinyl electrical tape commonly used when honing was not invented until the 1940s. This was well after the invention of the safety razor and the demise of many straight razor manufacturers.

Coincidentally, I recently had a hard time getting a shave ready edge on a quarter hollow. I must have slurried up my c12k a dozen times, trying again and again to get a nice edge, but hht and the shaves always ended horribly. Today I put on some tape, 50 laps with no pressure and the hht is spectacular. I'm looking forward to the shave tomorrow.

When people here talk about torque toward the edge, is that something that should be done on all grits, or only on the finisher? Or only during bevel set? My thinking was to only put some torque when finishing, in order to make sure to reach the very apex (resulting in some kind of barely detectable microbevel - like with a tape), but maybe I'm doing it the wrong way around and the added flex to the blade stops me from hitting the apex all the way?

Like overall pressure, torque is reduced as you get closer to finishing.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Like overall pressure, torque is reduced as you get closer to finishing.

Thanks
I guess I've been doing it wrong all along.
I lessened the pressure as I was moving up the grit, but at the same time tried to torque it more. No wonder my edges always took a lot of work to get to a bare minimum of usability.

Originally Posted by RayClem

With half hollow and quarter hollow blades, honing without tape can be done; but because the bevel width is wider than with a full hollow, it takes a lot longer to hone all the way to the apex. With a wider bevel, the pressure of the hone is distributed across a wider surface, so the PSI is lower and the effectiveness is lower. To compensate, you have to either apply more pressure, or hone for more strokes. Of course, if you have a full wedge, you have to remove metal from the entire surface of the blade unless you use one or more layers of tape.

Yes but no


The bevel isn't wider unless the wear on the spine is excessive

If you take an NOS Sheffield near wedge that hasn't had 150 years of bad honing on it with an intact factory spine the resulting edge will be just as tiny and perfect as any full hollow grind. Yes really it will

It is simply geometry nothing more

Full wedge, A fully flat blade is a very rare bird, I have seen blades with excessive wear that seem fully flat, but to find them without any grind at all is a rare blade, over 30000 razors have crossed my hones in the last 11 years professionally, I have seen ONE, and I am pretty sure it was a Blank that slipped out before final grind.


JME

Torque & Pressure

Just learn to watch the ripple of water at the front of the edge, it should either be at the front of the edge, (low grits) on riding up onto the edge or undercutting (higher grits)

Use the LEAST amount of torque and pressure to ride that wave from start to finish

Now comes the cool part, the higher you get in grit, and the finer the striations become on the bevel, the lighter the torque and pressure required to ride the wave.
Just don't let the wave drop under the edge and you are golden.

Originally Posted by lookingatpictures

Thanks
I guess I've been doing it wrong all along.
I lessened the pressure as I was moving up the grit, but at the same time tried to torque it more. No wonder my edges always took a lot of work to get to a bare minimum of usability.

I need to clarify...

This concept of torque always is hard to clarify. Don't think of it as an actual rotational torque. Instead, just focus on putting pressure on the edge and not on the spine. The spine is an angle guide so it needs to maintain contact with the hone but you don't need to remove any steel from the spine, only the bevel.

Thanks a lot guys, just shaved with the "taped razor" and it wasn't perfect but way better than the last shave. Then I took the razor, went back to 6k to erase the microbevel and then slurried up the cnat again and went through the dilutions with gradually less pressure and I didn't even try to torque anything like I did before. The blade is tree topping my arm hair with a nice popping sound and I'm hopeful that the next shave will be even better than the one today. I finally feel like I'm on the right path, what a relief.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now comes the cool part, the higher you get in grit, and the finer the striations become on the bevel, the lighter the torque and pressure required to ride the wave.
Just don't let the wave drop under the edge and you are golden.

Nice reminder. On a couple of mine, I undercut the wave easily with no torque on the towards-me stroke, but the wave slides under the blade on the away stroke... Unless I apply torque... Blade geometry? Or a function of the bevel I initially set? Any other advice?
Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Torque & Pressure

Just learn to watch the ripple of water at the front of the edge, it should either be at the front of the edge, (low grits) on riding up onto the edge or undercutting (higher grits)

Use the LEAST amount of torque and pressure to ride that wave from start to finish

Now comes the cool part, the higher you get in grit, and the finer the striations become on the bevel, the lighter the torque and pressure required to ride the wave.
Just don't let the wave drop under the edge and you are golden.

I think I lost count at 2 video's you've done illustrating tape vs no tape, and the fact that it makes no difference other than protecting the spine from excessive wear.

You also quite adamantly point out, change the tape at each stone progression.

I've always used tape simply to protect the spines on my razors, and remember speed kills, too much pressure kills, don't necessarily count strokes, it's done when it's done.

Nothing like a razor coming off the stones and for a new shave.

Still the funniest vid I've seen of yours, if the 30k finishing video, 4 laps and done...more time to set the camera up, or wet the stone, or put the tape on the razor, then it did to finish it....

That, and the guy who sold his 30k stone because he found a better one to sharpen his lawnmower blades.....his description of wanting his lawn exactly flat was hilarious!!