Thread: 'X' Pattern

Originally Posted by dylandog

Now, imagine a 3"-blade going straight down the middle of a 3" hone – no X'ing. But over the course of that straight-down honing stroke, a single heel-to-toe rocking motion is executed.

Oohhhhh... OK... now I think I get it. That seems to make sense for use on a 'smiling blade', but I can't see why that technique would be employed with a 'straight' blade.

- Ken -

Let's see if I understand what you are saying: On the upward stroke, I would rock-down with contact on the heel and somewhere in the center of the blade(push slightly down on the scales). Then on the downstroke, I would rock-up (lifting the scale slightly), thus insuring contact with the toe and somewhere in the middle of the blade?

All the while doing these strokes with the heel leading?

Regards,

Steve

Ok, so I'm going to go against the grain here, so to speak, and be the one to call the emperor naked...

For some time I've read about this "rolling" hone technique and really wondered about it??? Nothing in the barbering literature that I've ever read to suggest or support the technique. That doesn't necessarily invalidate it, but...

Now that I've seen that illustration of the "smiling" blade that doesn't lay completely flat on the hone...I've never actually seen a straight razor blade like that. And were I to see a blade that looked as such, with the center of the blade contacting the hone while the point and heel did not, I would consider it either defective or damaged. I certainly would not apply a honing technique that would work to maintain such a condition to the edge. I'd either toss it or have it re-ground.

Now I'm not denying the existence of "smiling" or convex edges on straight razors. That is the ideal shape for a well used razor and I have a few of those. But all of them lay completely flat. In fact, I'm not really sure how a razor could end up in that condition (as illustrated by Superfly) unless it were so worn that the point and heel were honed back almost to the spine? And then I still wouldn't "roll" it while honing.

So there is definately something askew here and I just wanted to throw in my two cents before some of the noobies start screwing up their razors.

Scott

Originally Posted by honedright

Now that I've seen that illustration of the "smiling" blade that doesn't lay completely flat on the hone...I've never actually seen a blade like that. And were I to see a blade that looked as such, with the center of the blade contacting the hone while the point and heel did not, I would consider it either defective or damaged.
Scott

All I can say is I'm looking at my current favorite shaver right now, a 5/8 smiling W&B quarter hollow, and when I lay it down the heel and toe don't touch. I can see the gap; this isn't some sort of Zen/Jedi feeling. And it's not warped at all: I can flip it over on the other side and it's exactly the same thing.

I think what you're saying is sometimes the extent to which the average smilie needs conscious rolling is exaggerated. And maybe "rocking and rolling" is already an exaggerated metaphor, and a dangerous one to throw at noobs. In which case you might be right. But the phenomenon of the gap isn't a hallucination precipitated by Superfly's drawings; in many blades it's real alright. And as far as those old handbooks go, they do talk about putting pressure on the heel at the beginning of the stroke, then going light on the middle, then putting pressure on the toe – which, if you think about it, amounts to the same thing. True, they advise this as a way of putting a smile on a razor and avoiding a frown, but again, the mechanics are the same.

Originally Posted by GoTeeGuy

Oohhhhh... OK... now I think I get it. That seems to make sense for use on a 'smiling blade', but I can't see why that technique would be employed with a 'straight' blade.

Because the pressure exerted on the blade's contact with the hone is different near the shank where you are holding it that out at the tip where you are not. Many guys will experience a shaving sharp heel and a tip which won't cut a thing. Bu employing a Rolling Hone pressure change up the edge as you advance through the honing stroke, even though there is little or no actual change in the blade's contact with the stone on a truly flat edge, you can effect a more equal response along the entire edge.

X

Originally Posted by xman

Because the pressure exerted on the blade's contact with the hone is different near the shank where you are holding it that out at the tip where you are not. Many guys will experience a shaving sharp heel and a tip which won't cut a thing. Bu employing a Rolling Hone pressure change up the edge as you advance through the honing stroke, even though there is little or no actual change in the blade's contact with the stone on a truly flat edge, you can effect a more equal response along the entire edge.

X

Okay, XMAN, That's exactally what I needed to hear!: The key word being PRESSURE! "employing a rolling hone pressure change up the edge as you advance through the honing stroke."

Well, you did it again, XMAN. Why couldn't somebody just say that?

Thanks a million,

Steve

Originally Posted by dylandog

And as far as those old handbooks go, they do talk about putting pressure on the heel at the beginning of the stroke, then going light on the middle, then putting pressure on the toe – which, if you think about it, amounts to the same thing. True, they advise this as a way of putting a smile on a razor and avoiding a frown, but again, the mechanics are the same. (???)

Actually the manuals recommend honing the heel, point and center with special emphasis at each section but at all times keeping the razor flat, but not all attempted during a single X patern stroke.

In other words, first you emphasize (with more pressure) honing at just the heel with 4 short X pattern strokes on each side, then you reposition the razor so that the point can be honed 4 times on each side with short X strokes, then reposition the razor again and hone the entire blade lightly X pattern style so that the center gets some attention.

The entire time, each section of the razor is held so that both the back and edge contact the hone at the same time. Over time this method will result in a convex "smiling" edge.

It may be possible that this could (on some styles of razors) cause the point and heel to get out of sync with the center, but in that case I still think instead of "rolling" the blade, it would probably be better to continue to hone the blade in sections with the blade kept flat as prescribed by the barber manuals.

I think the problem I am perceiving is that this "rolling" method, as suggested, seems to involve lifting the back, or spine, of the razor up and away from the hone during part of the stroke and that seems incorrect. And I still caution any noobies, who may have interpreted the "rolling honing" as I did, against lifting the spine while honing. If that is not how this honing method is meant to be done, then I stand corrected.

Scott

dylandog,

Thank you for the link to the great graphics. I'd say those pictures were worth many thousands of words. The U's and J's are rocking and rolling now!!

thanks again, Bruce

Originally Posted by xman

Because the pressure exerted on the blade's contact with the hone is different near the shank where you are holding it that out at the tip where you are not. Many guys will experience a shaving sharp heel and a tip which won't cut a thing.

X

That may explain why honing in an 'X' pattern does not produce an uneven blade. If the pressure on the heal is greater than that on the point, then the heal may simply not require as much honing, while the point still benefits from the extra 'travel' along the hone.

- Ken -

Sorry everyone - I need to remember to choose my words more carefully

Xman nailed it when he said it's a pressure transfer along the edge. It's really a tiny, tiny adjustment in edge pressure focus, that's all. I'd suspect it happens naturally as part of an X pattern anyway, in a lot of cases.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion

James.