Thread: Kitchen knives...

Ended up sharpening some of my friends knives . Eye opening experience.

One was Forschner that was mine during my culinary apprenticeship, another a Asian style thinner/ vegetable cleaver. He wanted me to do more but the other ones were so horrible I refused . Cheap steel, bent wavy knives.....
It was an eye opening experience after leaning to hone straight razors.
I was hyper critical.. sloppy, uneven bevel, unpolished......
I did get them to cut arm hair, and they tore up tomato skin....

I have become an honing snob.... I’ll only work on decent knives.....

I learned to sharpen kitchen knives spine leading.
Of course there was the opposing school of thought spine trailing .... never did any research was too busy cooking..... none of the other apprentices could justify one or the other
And none of the senior chefs had any decent explanation either

But with these I started with circles and edge leading.
The cleaver got some attention from a cheap 4 way diamond hone.
Did spend a bit of time on Norton #1 Washita, And Coe medium/ Bethesda
Never made to my nicer stones I didn’t feel they need it.
Spent 90% of time “setting bevel”
I finished on an (estimated) 1000-2000 grit stone, spine leading which I always felt gave better edge, and finally a few passes on a steel.

What is theory for spine leading vs spine trailing, Kitchen knife and Razor?

Wild guess but I think spine leading causes more plastic deformation . ie.. quicker to raise a burr.
Replies will be interesting

Only time i use a spine leading stroke, would be when the edge needs repaired. And its typically a back n fourth type action ( grinding a new bevel ).

A knifes bevel is usually convexed, so to do spine leading strokes, is only going to raise a burr, and create a week Edge.
A steels primary use is to refresh an edge, and keep it going longer. Kinda like stroppin a razor.

Most knife edges are only finished to 600-1000 grit, we want some teeth on that edge.

I usually just get sharp to where you feel knife biting the cutting board, and easily cutting tomato skin. Anything sharper edge would not last very long in a pro kitchen. I don’t Sharpen my personal knives often now that I’m not cooking professionally. I’m going to try spine trailing on next touch up.

ive been doing a lot of testing in this area lately, and while I still have a lot more to do, here is something that might help out.

if you break sharpening down into 2 distinct tasks, one being shaping {or bevel setting in razor speak}, and then sharpening/honing/polishing it makes it much easier.


in shaping, the strokes really don't matter. forward, backwards, circles, halfstrokes, write the alphabet on the stone with the steel, all you are doing is shaping the future edge and removing damage and whatever motion on the stone that you feel the most comfortable with is good.


in the second stage which is sharpening/honing/polishing im finding that what stone you are working on makes a big difference in the strokes.


my all time favorite working edge on a knife is the dmt or smiths 325, so that is the stone that I have the most time spent on and highest number of knives with, and the stone that I came up with my basic easy sharpening style, where you shape your edge on a Norton crystalon coarse/fine, then "polish" on the dmt 325, then shear off the burr with microbevels at a higher angle with the dmt. if the burr is properly prepared, and you use a light touch, those diamonds will shear the burr off cleanly and give a very nice aggressive edge that will take hair easily, slice a tomato at the slightest touch, and still work great at fielddressing game, butchering, carving wood, cutting leather, rope, ect….


now if you change stones to a traditional Waterstone, like the Norton 1k, or my suehiro 1k, king 1k, or the others ive tried, and you try to do the same thing, the abrasive in the Waterstone isn't [and im trying to find the right word here] aggressive enough to cleanly shear that burr off, and you end up with a burr that is sometimes sheared off, sometimes folded over, and lots of impaction on the edge as Waterstones are generally very soft and release abrasive quickly and they hit the edge and damage it.


then you take an oilstone to finish the edge off, like say a Arkansas, and it is somewhere inbetween, but leaning more towards the diamonds, depending on how the surface is prepped. if it is glazed over, it will just tend to push the burr over and not shear it. if it is freshly lapped, it will shear the burr off, but not as cleanly as a diamond.

and this quick overview is where a lot of the confusion starts. example on knives:

so ill say, bring it to a burr on both sides, weaken the burr, then shear that burr off. I love me some diamonds, and they work great in that manner.

murray carter might say, shape the edge till it passes the 3 finger test, knock off any remaining burr on a piece of soft wood, then remove the damage from ripping the burr off with a couple of trailing stokes on your finishing stone. murray likes his Waterstones, and they work great like that.

Cliff Stamp might say, use the plateau method where you destress the edge, and create a small flat at the very edge, shape the edge until there is no more reflecting light, and then apex on the finish stone of your choice, in which you never raise a burr at all. I think Cliff has never met a stone he didn't like in one way or another, and so uses a wide variety.


so the stone you are using, and the method that you are using the stone with is probably the biggest difference in when you want a trailing stroke or a forward stroke during the final sharpening/honing/polishing stage.

A bit descriptive, but yes. The end results are the same.

I just don't care to raise a burr, but a low grt. toothy edge, then refine it. Yes. Kinda the same.

As was said, set the apex, and debur. Pasted strop is handy, or back strokes (spine leading) on a finer stone for starters. SOme of these stainless knives are a little finicky to debur. WHat i do that i find helps me is I use a screwdriver and run it on both sides to help lose the bur. Ir doesnt touch the edge. And I havent noticed any issue with the edge doing that. It appears to save a little time losing the bur. Paper wheel or leather belt if used correctly is a real time saver.

I have a 13" long, hefty piece of slate that I will slurry up a thick mud on from a DMT 325, and some work on this (starting with a lot of Japanese back-and-forths) gives me some of my best knife edges, but I'll leave the serious shaping and bevel advice to you more knowledgeable fellows. I will say that once I have a nice, sharp edge on my main chef's knife (a Zelite Infinity Japanese knife I got from Amazon-love it!), I do the following after using it or as necessary:

-10 swipes or so each side on a 10" ceramic "steel" at a very shallow angle to match the edge
10 to 15 passes per side on a fire-hose strop sprayed with .5 diamond

Is it over-kill? Maybe, but this leaves me with an edge that feels "sticky" on my thumb-pad (and pretty similar to the edge it came with), and just falls right through all but the toughest of veggies. Rocking push-pull strokes make short work of those.

And I don't know how much you guys are into cutting boards, but my son got me one of those big, heavy butcher's block style boards made with maple ends, and it is a joy to use with that knife.

edit: I just refined that blade further on my 8x3" SB Ark with WD-40, and oh my god what an edge-it probably won't survive the next scallion lol!

edit: Sorry to hijack the thread OP, but I just finished up on that big SB Ark, and this stone's capabilities stun me more every time I sit down with it. Best knife I've ever achieved-just gotta work that curved toe some more.

As with most things, a lot depends on the user and what the knife is being used for.

Once folks know you are “Mr. Sharpener Pants”, out come the butter knives that last saw a stone or sanding belt, when they left the factory.

For them, Diamonds are a guy’s best friend. I use a 140 grit Atoma to remove the dings and grind a flat bevel, then begin polish on a 3 or 400 and finish polish on a 600 Atoma. This is the finish my bride likes and is quick and easy. Often, I just touch up on the 600 and it is ready to cut meat or vegies, she like a toothy edge.
Stubborn burrs can be cut off, jointing on a stone and re-set quickly on the 600. For a more finished edge on Carbon steel I finish from the 600 on a Lilly White Ark, great for carvers. My wife like Stainless she has 3 identical Santoku’s and I have 2 drawers of Vintage Carbon steel. So, she always has a sharp knife. Though she loves to call out from the Kitchen “Hey Mr. Sharpener Pants, this knife won’t cut a tomato!”

End grain cutting boards are easier on edges, my bride insists on Epicurean resin boards, that are only slightly softer than glass or tempered steel, so she can wash then in scalding hot soapy water.
So, I sharpen, when the stones are out…

Originally Posted by Euclid440

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End grain cutting boards are easier on edges, my bride insists on Epicurean resin boards, that are only slightly softer than glass or tempered steel, so she can wash then in scalding hot soapy water.
So, I sharpen, when the stones are out…

My house has Epicurean boards for the same reason.
I keep an old carborundum barber hone (101) hidden in the kitchen
and use it to tidy up the edge. I increase the angle over time and eventually
pull out a DMT or my Green Brick (2K) as needed.