Thread: Scratches on Blade from Bevel Setter

Long post, short of it is how do folks avoid scratches on the blade from the bevel setting phase?

Ok, here we go.

I've been shaving with a straight for about 10 years. I've used a more budget oriented setup. A 20th century American import from Solingen has been my workhorse: Rauh Cutlery branding half-hollow with a square point, sturdy bone scales, but plenty of patina. Not a looker but gets the job done very well. I picked up a faux frameback to toy with, and have a Max Sprecher restored Wade & Butcher wedge, which is beautiful but too much for a daily shaver (I'm always worried about spotting it and fuss with it too much when I shave), and a Dovo Renaissance stainless (same blank as the Bismarck) that I hate and never have been able to get an acceptable edge on (even after sending it off)... I got the latter two some time back off someone who was getting out of the hobby and looking to offload. I have a long suffering Omega boar bristle with a nice little stand I picked up in Singapore a decade ago, and a quality 3" Tony Miller red latigo that's been humming.

For honing, I keep my edges myself with a Norton waterstone set sold as a pair of combination stones (220/1k and 4k/8k). I had (well... have but now it's a doorstop) a PHIG, didn't really understand it (still don't) and ended up getting a Naniwa 12K for a finisher. Didn't have to set any bevels, so never really used the 400/1k stone for anything but kitchen and utility knives. Life is good. Or so I thought. Never really moved forward with the hobby, a couple of kids and time at the office kept me busier and busier, and as I was getting great two-pass shaves who's to know any different?

Over the summer my wife decided to take the kids back to Michigan to see her parents and escape the heat. Left me alone in the Middle East in the dead heat of summer along with a credit card. I'm not going outside if I don't have to. What to do on the weekend? Hey let's check out some old internet forums. Look, SRP has changed it's name... weird. Hmm... Tony Miller's still making strops. He has horsehide! Yes, please! Hey look, Obie is selling a sweet Wacker... okay I'll bite. We start chatting, he's a super-friendly guy, and one Wacker turns into two Wackers. Now I have a set of Wackers in the mail...

Wackers show up. These are very nice razors! But... what the heck?! These Wackers have an edge like you wouldn't believe. I think even in my early days before I "knew" how to make an edge, and sent mine off for honing occasionally, not once did I ever experience an edge like this. Obie clearly has something supernatural going on... all I have to do is wave these razors in the general direction of my face in the morning and the whiskers come off. His honing digits are either kissed by angels or he's in an unholy sharpening pact with a demonic force. To get edges like this by the hands of man alone is impossible.

Wife and kids are still gone, and I'm alone with the dogs. Time to get to work and try and up my honing game. I'm not getting close with my workhorse. Maybe it's my tools? Hmm... JNats were barely a thing ten years ago when I would haunt the forum, but now they seem to have come (and gone a little maybe). I've been saving money on razor blades for ten years, and my wife hasn't shut off my credit yet... time to get some new stones. I order a JNat Awasedo from a well known vendor along with a four piece Mikawa Nagura and go to town on my workhorse and the Reni. I don't do a bevel reset, just go with my current edge. Workhorse comes out pretty close to my Naniwa edge... Reni is still disappointing... hmmm...

I poke around E-Bay and find a guy who sells estate stuff that's not razors. But he's got a pair of vintage Solingens for sale separately reasonably priced. Pictures look good. Talk him down a bit off his asking if I take both listings and he combines shipping. I end up with a Royal Crown Amco and a Paul Waldmin. Photos on E-Bay are always dicey, so who knows what I'll actually get in person, but I didn't spend a lot and worst case can use them for honing practice.



Turns out they're in pretty good shape. Both still pop armhairs. Waldmin has jimps and some gold wash on spine and tang that's disappearing. Amco's a nice widdle guy, super thin grind, although the tang is a bit thin for my grip. Scales on both are a higher end plastic, definitely better than bakelite. Pins tight. Razors close centered. They've seen some use, but very little hone wear. Era? Hard for me to say with my limited experience... I would have guessed post-WWII but Waldmin seems like he was active in the 20's & 30's?

Even though they are popping hair, I can tell the edges are suspect. Plus the whole reason I bought them was to go from bevel through full JNat progression and see where I land. I knifebread the Amco on a glass jar, and put it through a 1k, 4k, 8k synthetic progression. It's apparent from the start the spine has the slightest bend perpendicular to the blade. No worries, a slight rolling stroke (and drooping stroke on reverse side). Bevel sets well, it moves on quickly up the progression, and certainly seems shaveable off the 8k. I then go through the JNat progression up through the Koma. Give it a stropping try the shave. Shaves very well... now I'm better than my Naniwa 12k. Smoother... but still not up to Obie's blessed (or cursed...) level.

I give it a day. Go back with the Amco to the Awasedo and use the Tomo Nagura... then dilute slowly as I go down to water only. Now I strop. Now I shave. Now I'm better still! The scales fall and my eyes are opened to an entire range of possibilities beyond a Naniwa 12k. But Obie's edge is still out of my reach... His divine/infernal gift is beyond me for now. Maybe some day. He mentioned something about palm stropping, but there are a lot of questions involved there that I'm afraid to ask about. Whose palm are you supposed to be using? Does Obie have a collection of palms? Are they still attached to the hand? Where did the hand come from? One thing is clear based on his results... Depending on the nature of his gift, be it from heaven or hell, clearly this palm is moisturized in unicorn milk or the tears of a thousand urchins respectively...

Ok... whoever is still reading this... a. you have too much freetime, and b. can you help me with scratches off the bevel setter? I'm going to hone up the Waldmin next (same progression but probably will skip the Botan which seemed to go back a step or two), and while I don't really mind, the Amco picked up scratches on the blade off the Norton 1k. Keep in mind I've got several years experience with a Norton 4k/8k, but haven't really used the bevel setter for razors before. Is there a trick to this? Close-up of the Amco under lighting to show the scratches (they weren't there before I started my experiment). They're up and down the length of the blade maybe going in a centimeter from the edge, most noticeable in this photo on the toe.

Those are nice looking razors you scored.

For scratches on the face of the blade, I only have gotten them when I use too long of a stroke and run the edge off of the stone. Usually only on the toe, from the nature of the x-stroke.

The only other possibility I can think of is the flatness of your 1k. If you sharpen knives like I do, like they slapped your mother, it ain't flat.

I suppose, if it is soft (I have no Norton experience) the resulting slurry could leave scratches. But that would have to be some real funky slurry...

Originally Posted by dinnermint

Those are nice looking razors you scored.

For scratches on the face of the blade, I only have gotten them when I use too long of a stroke and run the edge off of the stone. Usually only on the toe, from the nature of the x-stroke.

Those were my first two thoughts also.

Bob

The basis from every great edge is a fully developed apex. If your edge is not a perfect V it will never be a perfect edge. As for the scratches the mint nailed it.

Ditto on all above.

End your stroke before the razor tip leaves the edge of the hone.

Couple of other possibilities,

There was some grit on the stone, either contamination or from the edge of the stone.
Solution: rinse the stone and razor well before honing, smooth the edges

Pushing too hard on a hollow razor so the edge flexed down and the side of the blade contacted the hone
Solution: don’t push so hard.

The scratches are from doing circles, probably with too much pressure and too thick of slurry.

If you are going to use a synthetic progression, you do not need an Awasedo progression also. You are duplicating the grit progression. Either or, not both.

Metal polish will remove the scratches, tape the gold with scotch tape to protect it. FYI, gold is a PIA, avoid it for daily drivers, especially on the tang, it scratches just with hand contact. You can easily remove it with 1k wet and dry and metal polish. I would remove it from the tang, the rest you can live with if you are careful.

Dull the blade edge by bread-knifing it on the upper right hand corner of the 8k. you will never hone on the first one inch of that corner, so it is safe to micro nick it up, when you lap the stone, just round over that corner just to make sure you have a smooth edge of the stone. Dull the blade to keep from cutting yourself , then polish out the scratches. A piece of 1k wet and dry followed by a good metal polish or just a good metal polish will remove the scratches. If you lay the blade on a piece of 6mm craft foam, light pressure will imbed the edge as you polish and allow you to polish up to the edge safely with out fear of cutting yourself.

What are you lapping your stones with? You do have to lap all your stones initially to get them flat and smooth, and to round or bevel the edges.

The scratch issue and the lack of keenness of the edge, may be the same problem. Too much pressure. If a blade is very hollow ground and thin, it will flex easily, very easily. If you flex the blade, the back of the bevel acts as a fulcrum and lifts the edge off the stone. So, you are only honing the top half of the bevel, and not the edge. The blade is flexing so much you are scratching the belly 5-6 mm from the edge.

Edge issues can be the razor, (warp), the stones, (lack of lapping or stone finish, stone’s potential) or technique, (too much pressure, too thick or too wet slurry), or all 3.

Start by eliminating as many variables as possible. First lap your stones flat, an inexpensive 300 ish diamond plate or 220-320 wet and dry and a hard-flat surface, a dollar store steel cookie sheet works well and will also contain the mess.

Polish off the scratches, so you can gage your progress. Get some magnification and a colored sharpie (felt tipped pen), I like red, and a 60-120X handheld Carson Micro Brite, $10-15. The more you can see what is happening at the edge, the better and quicker you will understand how your technique affects the edge. Colored ink is so much easier to see, even without magnification.

Tape the spine, Ink the edge and reset it on the 4k with light pressure. The bevels should be flat, so the 4k should easily reset the edge in about 20 laps. Make sure you are removing ink all the way to the edge and that you have an even stria pattern on the bevel and all the 1k stria is removed.

Once you have an edge, re-lap your stone and do 20 more light laps to perfect the edge and make the 4k stria as shallow as possible. Strop 10 laps on linen and 10 on leather to clean the edge of any possible flashing. On a re-lapped 4k do 3-4 laps with very light laps.

Lap your Jnat and leave a light slurry, re-ink the bevel and remove all the 4k stria from the bevel, how fast this happens will tell you a lot about your stone. Look at the edge, from the side, (for straightness) and straight down on the edge, (to see if you have any chips).

If your stone is hard and you need more aggression, make a light slurry with the Tenjyou. The Tenjyou is also a good starting place for refreshing an edge, or a Diamond slurry.

Wash the stone and razor under running water make a Diamond or Tomo slurry and finish on that, again look at your edge for straightness, insure it is chip free, and you are honing to the edge,( light pressure). Ink and magnification are your friends.

The Jnat and Awasedo are natural stones and each will perform as such, (you must figure out where or if they work in your progression). So, you can possibly finish on your finest Awasedo, Tomo or Diamond slurry, thickness of the slurry, the preparation of the bevel at the point where the Jnat is introduced and your technique will all influence the quality of the edge. You must unlock that secret.

For now forget about water only honing, your stone may not be capable of water only finish, or you may be too heavy handed. Finish on a light slurry, which ever is the finest.

Finish on the finest slurry, strop 10 laps on linen and leather, go back to the Jnat and do 3-4 light laps, then 10-20 light laps on leather only, and shave.

Once you begin to learn your Jnat and the nagura slurry, then you can introduce the 8k, which will make less work for the Jnat and nagura. Remember you are working with natural stones, so it is up to you to figure out the progression or lack of. Sometimes less is more, with a good Jnat you can easily go from 1k to diamond slurry and finish on that same slurry.

Piece of cake…

Welcome to the black hole, we are all searching for the extra 2 %, the first 98% is easy.

Thanks guys. Yes, this is a full hollow with a very thin grind. I used some pressure on setting the bevel, to include circles, due to the slight warp in the spine. That's when the scratches showed.

Thanks for the great (and thorough!) advice.

BTW, if you work on/polish the blade of a full hollow, you should support it as it will flex just like too much pressure on the hone. It’s possible to damage a blade, so make sure that it’s supported by something, edge of a table, wooden/rubber block, etc.