Thread: Rolling X

Watch the ripple regardless of the geometry of the razor, forget the idea of those Names of the stroke we made up as we saw fit back in 07-08 they seemed like a good idea back then

"Always hone toward a smile and you will avoid a frown", why do we say that ?? Because there are idiots out there on the internet that actually Think / Say because the Hone and Strop are 3" wide that you can go straight up and down them both

You have to understand that the razors and the hones are NOT perfect, you must move that bevel Evenly & Equally across the hone and strop, just watch that ripple go from Heel to Toe don't let it slip under the bevel and you are Honing


Watch the ripple, relax and enjoy honing the razors, as long as you see that ripple you are golden, adjust the stroke to accomplish that, it really is that simple, the only hard part is learning the muscle memory to do it every time with the least amount of Torque and Pressure needed ..

Yeah, I think the terminology is what's throwing you off Steve. I think you understand it better than you think you do. One thing you might have misunderstood is that it looks like you're lifting the spine but you're not. It's just the motion, at least if you're watching Glen's video. This is the hard part when you're new to it. If you saw some joker tell you to lift the spine that guy's an idiot but how would you know if you're new to it? Glen gives a good explanation there if that makes sense to you. He's talking about the ripple of the water on the stone and watching the wake of it like behind a boat but it will be in front of the edge. That's a good way of thinking of it. Thanks Glen. What the ripple does is show you that the edge is in contact with the stone. If it's not the water will go underneath the edge where it lifts. although if your stroke is right and your spine is not warped it doesn't actually lift it's just raised off the stone because the spine or edge that is in contact with the stone is not in line with the part that is not. Some razors have a warp or maybe the grind wasn't exactly straight to begin with. For those you have to compensate and Glen shows this in one of his videos. I personally have always thought of it in terms of keeping the edge at any point on the blade at a 90° to the stone as you go through a stroke No matter whether it is a straight or smiling edge. But then maybe that's not right either. As you can see in one of Glen's videos He goes at a 45°. The whole point is making sure that the entire edge makes contact with the stone. That's why the swoop in the rolling x, to follow the curve.
I think I'm saying that right. Somebody please correct me if I'm not. I think the others will agree with me on this. You've done well this early to be able to hone successfully and good on you for that but if you run into a blade that has a warp or probably even a frown that's something you want to leave for now or send out for repair because that's much more of an advanced honing technique. Learn honing a decent razor first and then try learning repair on a junker that you literally care nothing about.

Again the preface: I am not a honemeister. I think it's safe to say though that you've tackled the harder thing which is a smiling blade at least in terms of razors that don't have a wonkiness or a warp. In general it is good advice not to try to bite off too much at once and I'll agree with the other guys that it would probably help you enormously to meet with someone who can help you if that's an option. The straight edge should be easier to learn than what you already have learned.
I'll say it again. You're doing fine Steve. You know I'm always here for you.

Standard disclaimer: I am not a honemeister so this is not written to be considered a gospel in the honing Bible just a demonstration of what has worked for me to help me wrap my brain around it.

Here's a demonstration of what I mean by keeping the edge at a 90° to the edge of the stone through the stroke. This is the 4K side of a 4K / 8K Norton water hone just used for demonstration because it was white and the lines show up well on it. This applies to any stone that I use

Honing in an X pattern I think of keeping a 90° angle at a given point which in this case is 1/4 inch in from the bottom of the hone and arbitrarily the intersection at 1 inch in from either side and 1 line drawn down the middle for reference.
When honing an edge that is completely straight along the entire length I think of it fairly simply as these pictures demonstrate


Even if an edge (Not the BLADE because the edge is what matters in honing regardless of the geometry of the blade as a whole. For instance, a blade can have a smiling spine but a straight edge or vice versa.) is mostly straight but has a curve at the heel or at the toe I give it angle as that portion crosses the intersection on the way down the stroke concentrating on the intersection of the edge with the horizontal line like so.


As Glenn mentioned earlier in this thread or perhaps it was in one of his videos if you have a notched razor and are shaving around a beard it helps to have the angle go up around that tight curve at the end.
If the blade is smiling then the same principle applies the entire length of the edge.



Over time the line can become imaginary but it helped me to imagine it to put the lines on the stone. It is safe to do so and if it helps it certainly won't hurt the stone.

Again, as I say this is not gospel just something that helped me visualize proper technique.

You don’t have to go with the tip from corner to corner. If you do the heel will end up with very little time on the stone. The tip is on the stone 100 percent of the time the heel falls off with in the first inch of lateral travel.

Watch Charlies stroke on the Rolling X and see where the heel comes off the stone, notice how rounded your once spike point is. More time on stone, more wear. The goal is even wear and a fully honed edge.

You can also hone a smile, (especially at low grits) by honing the toe and heel separately with straight strokes. Do two laps on the toe then two on the heel, then blend the middle with a rolling X, or just perfect the rolling X.

Charlies videos of the Rolling X is the best visual. Watch his smooth stroke and imitate it.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

You don’t have to go with the tip from corner to corner. If you do the heel will end up with very little time on the stone. The tip is on the stone 100 percent of the time the heel falls off with in the first inch of lateral travel.

Watch Charlies stroke on the Rolling X and see where the heel comes off the stone, notice how rounded your once spike point is. More time on stone, more wear. The goal is even wear and a fully honed edge.

You can also hone a smile, (especially at low grits) by honing the toe and heel separately with straight strokes. Do two laps on the toe then two on the heel, then blend the middle with a rolling X, or just perfect the rolling X.

Charlies videos of the Rolling X is the best visual. Watch his smooth stroke and imitate it.

1) I got that rattler like that. I haven't even touched that one yet. Just used for a demonstration of how sometimes the edge goes around the corner. I would never do that to a square point. In fact I think that's what Steve's (OP) concern is.
2) The line is not there to follow as a guide just to visualize the turn in a stroke. That line can go anywhere on the stone In fact it's best if it's imaginary because then you're not following a line you're looking at the edge.
3) Not the gospel. Just for visualization. It's all an exercise in watching how the edge goes across the stone at any given point on the razor. As I said before I didn't have anyone to teach me this I had to come up with ways on my own to make sense of it. I'm not saying they're all right. I'm saying this was what helped me get a grasp on the concept.