Thread: My 1K/4K challenge

So I've read about shaving off your 1k and 4K stones as an exercise, but was a bit chicken to try it. In another thread it was suggested that I give it a go and I decided to man up an see if I can improve my honing. I'm trying to go into this with my eyes wide open and learn as much as I can. I've selected a full hollow and a near wedge to work with. The hollow is one of the first razors I'd restored and have shaved with it a couple of times, but not very recently. IIRC I thought the shave was ok, but nothing spectacular. The wedge is a recent restore that I've never used.

With my 1K freshly flattened I got comfy and started with the hollow. Looking carefully at the edge with a new magnifier (higher mag and better resolution than I'd been using) it looked like the bevel hadn't been fully set. I did a few laps with some moderate to heavy torque on the blade and I felt a bit of roughness at the heel and toe, but it did undercut the water. So I started gradually reducing torque and checked the edge every 50 or so laps and threw a few circles in for kicks (I really need to practice those). The roughness was gone and it was looking like the two bevels were meeting, but I noticed when I went super light with the pressure (blade weight only) it would stop undercutting. In my head I'm thinking that when I put torque into the stroke the blade is flexing a bit and effectively reducing the honing angle or lifting the apex away from the stone. The light strokes don't flex the blade and the not yet perfect apex is pushing the water not undercutting it. Am I way off base with this theory?

I took a couple of microscope pics looking down on the edge. At the higher mag it looks like there is just a really thin line of unfinished apex.

The edge at about 12.5X


The edge at about 60X (the little dark spots above and below the edge are dust)


I think I need to spend some more time with the light strokes to finish the apex. If I'm out in left field let me know.

The edge is tree topping arm hairs and feels sharper than when I started so I'm not as worried about the shave.

IMO, you are very close to being right. The flexing causes the edge to lift up off the stone and you are honing just behind the edge. To go from torque to weight of the blade you need to lighten up your strokes slowly. Not all at once. Torquing is good but too much will cause this to happen. Its something you should try not to do. The thinner blades its happens easier than you think.

So I’m do not understand your pictures. My view for perfecting the apex is to try to look straight down at the edge. No sparkle and no white lines means it time to do some light stroke to reduce the depth of the crutches made with strokes with some pressure. Then strop and shave.

The images are looking straight down on the edge (as close as I could get it). The tips of the arrows are right on the apex. I'm not seeing sparkles or white lines, just the dark line right at the apex.

I've been working light strokes to try and get the water to undercut with less and less pressure.

I feel like I'm really close but maybe? not quite there.

Will I get the water to under cut with blade weight only strokes? If not I'm ready for the strop.

If nothing else this has really helped me get better control of my light strokes.

Mm the blade is suppose to Undercut the water.if the water is going under the blade you are not making contact with the hone. A dull or unfinished edge will push water in front of it, but as the blade gets to a point where it is matching the grit of the hone, the blade undercuts the water and it rides up the blade seemingly with out any surface tension. I hope you got a good visual from the description. Lighting is very important when assessing the apex. The white lines and sparkles are incomplete pieces of the apex reflecting back.

Originally Posted by JellyJar

I've been working light strokes to try and get the water to undercut with less and less pressure.

I feel like I'm really close but maybe? not quite there.

Will I get the water to under cut with blade weight only strokes? If not I'm ready for the strop.

If nothing else this has really helped me get better control of my light strokes.

Yes you can by adjusting Torque and Pressure together, the nice thing about using the visual cue of the ripple is as you learn it becomes "Self-Regulating"
The sharper and more fine that edge and bevel become, the less torque and pressure will be required to ride that ripple

I am going to wait till after you do the test shave and then point out something to you

Remeber get it a good as you think is possible then strop 20 laps on leather and try the shave

Originally Posted by RezDog

Mm the blade is suppose to Undercut the water.if the water is going under the blade you are not making contact with the hone. A dull or unfinished edge will push water in front of it, but as the blade gets to a point where it is matching the grit of the hone, the blade undercuts the water and it rides up the blade seemingly with out any surface tension. I hope you got a good visual from the description. Lighting is very important when assessing the apex. The white lines and sparkles are incomplete pieces of the apex reflecting back.

^^^^^ That is really well written

Looks like you need more light. Black lines cant happen when you got light shinning on the edge. Besides straight down I also get a good look at 30 and 45 degrees to the edge/apex. Sometimes you can see things from an angle. Also when looking from an angle be sure to look at both sides as it can be right on one side and not on the other.

Are you using slurry on your stone? when finishing with a stone I use clear water, but before that, a little slurry helps. Also if you lose the undercut you can make a tiny bit of slurry and bring the undercut back again. Then go back to clear water. A diamond plate is a wonderful tool to have when honing! Now somw folks are pro slurry and some are not. You have to find what works for you.

Looks more like edge flashing, flashing is a piece of a thin burr or foil edge. It could be from too much pressure or too may laps on one side.

As you hone one side of the bevel the other rolls up ever so slightly, if you flip the razor and hone the other side you cut off the burr or at least straighten it out.

Thin hollow ground razors flex with pressure and you hone the back of the bevel and not the edge. Then if you use less pressure and now are honing the edge and it can get very thin and make a thin foil edge or flashing.

Just Joint the edge and cut it off completely and make a straight edge. Then hone to the straight edge,

If you want to max out the 1k edge, joint the edge and reset it, (10-20) laps. Joint it again, one lite stroke and reset with very lite pressure. You will see the edge get straighter and with fewer chips.

You can get a very straight, chip free edge on a 1k by jointing and resetting the edge a few times. Joint on the corner of the edge of the stone, you will feel any chips if you do a lite slow stroke. If you feel a chip, you will have to hone past the depth of the largest chip, so the steel has to come off one way or another. Cut it off and start with a straight edge.

If you strop the edge on Flax, Linen or a pasted strop then remove the 1k stria with the 4k, you will get a very straight and smooth 4k edge.

So I started gradually reducing torque and checked the edge every 50 or so laps and threw a few circles i

How many laps did you do, it is possible to do too many laps and make the edge so thin you create a foil edge. At 1k you just want to get the bevels flat and meeting.

Unfortunately, the images are static. The pics are 2D but it's a stereo microscope, so live, I have 3D vision. I do move the blade around in the light to get a better idea of what's going on. I know light angle can have a profound effect on ones ability to see striations (it's a big part of my job).

No, I'm not using slurry. I have a basic understanding of the process, but haven't really messed with it yet. I'm trying to limit my variables right now. I do think I'll play with it in the future. For now I just want to master the "basics".

At this point I'm really pretty sure I'm there. I did a mess of light laps with water and then went with super light laps until the stone was "dry" and did about 25 more laps with no standing water. The TPT and hair tests are equaling some of the best I've ever done (frankly I've shaved with worse). I'm really surprised/excited about how this edge feels with just the 1K. Seriously, didn't think it would be quite this level.

I think I'll cross my fingers and get to the strop.

I'm actually glad I did this challenge. Even if the shave is horrible I feel like I'm starting to really improve my honing.