Not following your logic on that at all
SR's have been hollow ground since the 1700's their bevels have always been honed and stroped toward a convex bevel and edge
Maybe I am just missing your point
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Hello
I'm not sure if you're trolling or we have a language problem but your post seems very confused.
I read the whole page on your link rather than one sentence & it is a description of making a bellied hollow grind. All hollow ground razors are made this way to varying degrees.
This has nothing to do with the shape of the edge bevel.
In fact all razors are concave in grind ,even wedge razors ground on a 36" wheel must be slightly concave.
Once you put a razor on a honing stone, only two points of contact will be made, the edge and the spine.
The distance between two points is a always a straight line. Essentially this will create an isosceles triangle... at the bevel. It's simple geometry.
Even if a hone were convexed lengthways rather than side to side the resulting concavity of the bevel would be irrelevant in real world use.
So, here is a simple question and solution. How many of the “Shave Ready Machine experts, shave daily with one of your razors?
Find someone in your organization that does and ask him how he hones his razor.
While the machine may measure the accuracy of the grind, it still must be honed. Even a poorly ground Dovo or even a Chinese Gold Dollar can be made to shave well.
You are missing the point or being sold a bill of goods. Either learn to hone a razor or stop telling people that the razors are shave ready, if you tried to shave with one, you would know.
hello again
I do not know what to say to the idea that a 17-20cm finishing wheel [standard for approximately 1890-1930] would leave a curved cutting edge profile that varied from an isosceles triangle edge profile 'by microns' or that you would not feel the difference. Have you experts shaved from a 20cm finishing wheel? If so, where did such a wheel exist? It is possible no person alive has had this deceased standard. Why did all the manufacturers use this as their ending at the height of hollow grind razor productions, never a flat stone, while owning both tools (the flat kept for wedge grind sharpening) in the factories, just to push production? Are you aware of how low the adjusted price for honing was at the time thanks to no labor laws against women and children at height of Industrial Revolution?
Certainly we agree a line separates two points, but if the points on the line were only moving in reference to one another while upon any arc, the metal represented by the boundary aside their motion will be a curved boundary.
All will work out once the certificates start coming with the razors, you will then essentially be demanding the end of production, which has come perilously close before and could happen again, but at least you will need to state such demand in objective terms as referenced by the testing data.
It is a strange phenomenon indeed that the most senior experts on a self instructed forum demand excellence that today even Wacker (= one very small work-kottage) does not meet the standards, I wish for you the time of highest production, and quality, where you can take the very best of Victorian hollow grinding excellence without humanity's prior consumption of that steel interfering with the supreme quality required (and at this time you can erase the incumbent cutting edge, just 10cm reference for the best razors of the period, with the preferred convex or isosceles edge shape).
Germans do occasionally read and write English and take note of English language postings of their industry. That's why we've invested heavily in the testing you can see.
Are you saying the quality of the edge on a modern straight razor is inferior to that found on older vintage straight razors? That this is due to different methods employed today to keep the unit cost down of the finished product?
Bob
So it sounds like you're saying that razors were never finished on a hone when they left the factory ? If that were true & this miniscule curved boundary you refer to existed don't you realise that it would disappear with the first few strokes on even a barber's hone ? Do you think we should all send our razors back to the factory for honing to maintain that pristine grind ? Maybe people did that in Victorian times but I've honed my own razors for nearly 40 years & even took money from others to do the same at one time. Never had a complaint about comfort or edge longevity.
The sharpest razors in existence, the Japanese wakamisori are a single bevel which are all honed & maintained on flat stones.
To me this whole concept of concave edges sounds like a marketing ploy but ....
I look forward to see these certified edges if that means the razor's shave readiness will be improved over past levels & I hope the Dovo warping & frowning issues will be addressed at the same time.
yes of course BobH, there are many reasons the quality cannot precisely equal the peak of Victorian production - master grinders are always highly skilled, but the labor pool of such was massively larger then, the costs of production dramatically reduced due economies of scale (child labor was normal), and we have lost the lapidary productions of hard natural finishing wheels as well, likely a wheel has not been the final step in fifty years or more at a German factory setting. Raw materials sometimes effectively pass away, there is still abalone but there is not still abalone shell commercially available in the size required for a scale, so we can do only inlay or partial/segments. Similarly the abrasives may be underfoot but without a lapidary that possesses the tremendous skill needed to fashion a single piece of such abrasive, it is effectively equivalent to extinct.
Because of this acknowledged limitation, this forum would apparently prefer the item cease its production, so that we may all only reflect on the zenith we have not approached prior or since, and appreciate its unmatched quality and price combination. Let us finish play of basketball as well for most alive have seen the Michael Jordan era, and concede it cannot be equaled; as the statue states from the first of the three retirements "the best there ever was, the best there ever will be".
Just remember if modern production ceases, those coveted items are in finite supply, and all their labor costs were paid many generations ago...then you can maintain forum for devotion to the antiques and eschew the inferior modern pieces cutting corners to save time and money.
Thank you for confirming that. Then there really was no need for your long winded and torturous to read post that came across as being a bit arrogant. It could have been more concise and therefore better understood negating the need to ask for clarification in the first place.
Bob
Mr. razorfranken
I suggest the following:
Find someone fluent in your language and
Can write in fluent English and
Has the ability to compose a clear, concise message.
BobH you are not compelled to read anything, and I do not know how you would feel if you were a working professional in any capacity for twenty years and were told how wrong you were on an objective data point about the actual production to which your profession is devoted by self taught experts in an internet forum who lack the formal training required for your profession like any, but hopefully this scenario will come for you one day. If technical writing from a mechanical engineering standpoint is too verbose, I am sorry, it does take much longer to write a short letter than a long one in a hurry.
Someone had asked how much is the concavity upon the cutting edge itself at the apothem of the arc cut in to the bevel form, while it varies from grinder to grinder and model to model I can state it is likely, today, less than .002mm. But that is not the complete story; you have ignored meaningful changes to the reduction of the edge radius and effective cutting angle. Instead of thinking about the small width of the bevel form as an expression of the razor whole, consider a common standard for today as expressed across a typical 5/8" Solingen full hollow ground blank. Between the spine and the terminus of the cutting edge on such a razor, the abrasive will extend .032mm closer to the center of the metal than with any flat object by today's meager standard for wheel forming [and with a 20cm wheel common in 1900 it will extend .644mm closer!] The abrasive must then return to that same furthest point from the spine upon the metal, and in so doing, it will encounter the cutting edge profile near to but spineward of the cutting edge terminus. This is not an area that is fixed in position, use your thumb nail and draw your blade edge toward the nail, what occurs? The blade will flex and return to position if properly ground and tempered. And thus what occurs is that the final portion of the cutting edge furthest from the spine is gently extruded away from the spine during the sharpening. Only by using a wheel (or arc chord shaped hone) can you design the curvature of the abrasive to take advantage of the unique flexibility (in the area where the cutting edge is <.2mm) of the steel used for razor production.
You may not be noticing the difference for forty years in these two examples, but that does not mean the factory razor did not have a length advantage. It did, and when it was corrected by your rehoning, your new cutting edge terminus must take place at the position at the prior concave edge's apothem, so immediately you have discarded useful metal. If you had done everything you have done for the forty years but only changing the whetstone geometry, you would have retained the length and added your higher refinement than financially possible in a professional setting today for an open razor to be produced en masse and sold in retail markets where retailers, shipping companies, brokerage houses, and steel forges must all receive a portion of revenue.
If your one of the guys putting out these crap edges, shave with one instead of just talking. You come on here just to troll
Thank you, I will definitely let the Böker managing director know of their error soon, and the poor English as my own.
Mr Euclid440; it is rare that a master grinder does not use a straight razor, in fact I would say nearly none, this is like saying a Scotsman in whisky trade does not drink. All that I know use nothing else.
I have been fortunate in that the two new out of the box razors I purchased actually arrived shave ready. In both cases I purchased from a reputable vendor who was also an expert honer who took it as a personal responsibility to make sure that every blade he sold was shave ready to his high standards before it left his shop. Those razors are the standards against which I hold my own honing.
I have heard similar highly satisfied reports of razors purchased from several of the razor artisans whose work we often see and read about on SRP. Not so for many for the razors purchased from current larger-scale manufacturers.
If a manufacturer implies that the razor I bought is shave ready, they should indicate that on the packaging and suggest that it not be honed or stropped before first use. They should have that much confidence in the quality of the blade they have made. If that statement isn’t there, I assume I will have to hone the razor to make it shave ready.
Let’s be real about the nature of the commentary about edges coming from SRP members. We do have real experts here and they do have very high standards against which mass-produced razors might not fully measure up.
A note on how this conversation seems to be progressing as I get the feeling some folks are getting a bit exercised by some of the comments: please maintain a cordial and inviting level of discussion even when the topics and points of view might be somewhat controversial.
You've all lost me pages ago.
All I want is that razor manufacturers don't deliver finished razors with a frown.
Whatever they do, how they do it, or what's to blame is luckily none of my concern.
I frankly don't accept ANY reason or excuse for a frown in razors.
For me that's the worst mistake you can make in producing a razor and I find it unacceptable.
No one ever would find that acceptable.
That the honing is not up to par, is unfortunate, but I can understand that and find it less troublesome. (unless you make false claims that it is truly shave ready and well honed)
All the other discussion points are far above my head.
Much of Scotland's whisky is produced in the Highlands and Western Isles where historically the Free Kirk of Scotland (and a slightly bewildering array of other Presbyterian churches, both associated and opposed) have held sway for centuries. The views of these churches have evolved over time, but it is not at all unusual for adherents to be teetotal or in other words to abstain from consumption of alcohol. It has not been at all uncommon for teetotal Scots to be involved in the whisky trade and your analogy is based upon a false assumption.
Now that the name Boker has come up, I do have a comment on their product of current manufacture. I do not purchase many brand new current production straight razors. I think this old post of mine will clarify my experience with current Boker straight production.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/show-te...ft-myself.html
Bob
Mr. Cangooner you misunderstand, I am meaning you cannot be the master distiller and not taste whisky several times each day. It is a requirement of that particular job's competency in my opinion, I don't know how you could be a non-drinker and state you are the master distiller of the whisky. Similarly, I myself have never known of a razor grinder that does not use an open razor to shave, both man and woman alike, and I am nearly forty years old and have known razor grinders intimately for over twenty years.
Mr. DZEC thank you for your kindness from moderation team perspective, it seems almost here are very cordial.
Mr. BobH I can wholly confirm, your Böker was honed upon the same convex hones and using the common platen discs you see in many Solingnen videos, also always slightly convex.
I am not here to represent a company, I am here to speak toward the interest of the Solingen cutlery as general concept. Certainly, that is a financial interest. But when people here or similar forums write things like as example Dovo razors are partially made in China (this is completely illegal by the Solingen copyright law and it is one of the best enforced trademarks in the world, not even China will dare offer a counterfeit with those precise words on the steel) or that they lift the spine off of the platen during the establishment of the cutting edge, the German way is simply not to address that which they know not to be true. You will likely never read any comment from anyone at Böker, Dovo, Erbe, or Wacker. As you in this forum are likely aware, however, Dovo recently reorganized after insolvency proceedings and the straight razor industry as a whole is near at historical nadir and first such time period since their revival ~20yrs prior, so someone needs to speak for the jobs we need when something that is objectively incorrect is written as fact. Subjective terms like "not shave ready" do not bother, it is only objective statements such as made in China, lifting a spine, using a flat hone, etc., that need to be addressed by Solingen if we are to keep our professions for our next generation. The forthcoming 'shave ready machine certificate' is a step toward that preference for objective and not subjective declarations. In the end America is by far the strongest market so we will have to speak up toward objective things for hearts and minds where appropriate. The candor of these forums is wholly appreciated in any case.
All these posts from razorfranken81 and rasur81 (B&B, closed) do is result in innumerable posts about how bad Solingen grinding is these days. If these posts weren’t made, very little would be said about the poor grinding. If someone really wanted to hurt Solingen razor production and their vendors, they’d post many such comments across the forums and then no one would want to buy Solingen razors.
I think we can easily find common ground in the fact we all enjoy a well produced quality razor. As I see it, a razor provided with a straight edge or a slight smile; certainly not with a frown.
And one that is truly shave ready without functional or practical hindrances created by the manufacturer.
Aside from a well produced razor that is perfectly functional, straight razor shaving is highly subjective. Even the finisher preference varies A LOT between folks and that's something that can easily be worked out by folks themselves. Fundamental problems with the razor can't.
The fact there has been many reports on fundamental issues with modernly produced razors in Solingen is what bothers people, and rightfully so, folks expect better from a town called Solingen and also from a name like Dovo.
As a while ago when I started shaving everybody was recommending entry level Dovo razors.
It sounds idealistic, but often times fundamental perfection gets lost in modern day times due to a variety of reasons; which is eventually a sad thing.
We are no doubt a nostalgic bunch that admire the art of straight razors, etc. And since we're all on a forum, we're a bit of perfectionists as well, maybe.
I hone a lot of new Dovo and TI razors, the issue is not that they are not precisely ground, they can be repaired easily, properly honed and made to shave well.
The issue is that Dovo and a few trolls claim that they are “Shave Ready”, and they are not. If a new shaver were to receive the razor that Glenn posted photos of, he would be sorely disappointed and likely never learn to shave with that razor.
I once read an article about the problem with cheap, poorly made golf clubs. And that someone trying to learn to play golf with poorly made clubs will just give up on the sport and never learn the difference a quality set of clubs can make.
That Dovo claims their razors are “Shave Ready” hurts your industry more than the imperfect grinding. With hand tools, chisels, plane blades and knives, everyone understands that the end user must hone the tool prior to use, with possibly one or two exceptions, (and you pay for that). There is no expectation of a user ready tool. And every woodworking school first teaches tool preparation and honing before they are taught how to use the tools.
The solution is not high dollar, Precision CNC, in-process laser measuring manufacturing, but their claims. Your industry’s ladder is on the wrong wall and the solution is simple, stop claiming the razors are shave ready, if they are not, or teach your people how to hone.
Clearly the “Honers” at Dovo are not shaving with those razors and the master grinders that do shave with these razors, are not honing the razors.
Dear Friend: This is making it worse for you and what you are promoting, in fact you sound just like Jarrod with his junk science. same inaccurate math pulled from nether regions, in fact your writing style is exactly the same....:shrug:
Yes your doing it wrong, and you should know better, don't try and pee and tell everyone it is raining
Your factory edges are not up to a standard that was achieved for 100's of years on millions of razors it is that simple...
I for one appreciate your Honing ineptitude it makes me beer money :)
I am sure there are Vendors that do not, lets be real here
Your ineptitude is what is killing the SR market again, the worst thing that can happen is a new shaver gets your junk science honed edge, and NEVER returns to SR shaving, another person that thinks we are all lying about the great shaves we get because you can't learn to hone and refuse to admit it..
Try that somewhere else, you ain't doing well so far on the 3 biggest SR shaving forums peddling that crap
Damn Marty I guess we were both typing at the same time
The idea was interesting at first. But theres always a latest and greatest. I think if you learn to use a convex stone(i never did) you can produce a nice edge. You can produce a nice edge with flat stones. If all we had were round cylindrical stones we would learn on those and produce a nice edge. Its a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. And for anyone to say theyre smart and everyone else is ignorant is stupid. Now the fake account pretending to be from germany? In the words of my 46th favorite president.... Cmon man! LOL
Yall all know that I don't claim to be an expert in this in any way. But what it seems like razorfranken81 is saying is that Soligen razors have always been ground and honed on a concave stone to make a convex edge. But also that the masters of the craft have all retired and are not producing the quality that they did in the glory days. It kinda seems like the argument is the level of quality degradation.
There is a small debate about the edge shape, and I certainly don't know the science of the flat, concave, and convex bevels. But I would think that with the microns we are dealing with, a fine shaving edge (at least for 99% of us) can be produced flat, concave, and convex. So here again, it seems to come back to whether or not the edge is shave ready regardless of shape. If I pulled out my first razor out of the box and it tugged, pulled, and hurt I would have thought "I guess that's why they don't use these any more" and had a fancy letter opener and a Mach III razor or stuck with the beard.
See, I clearly don't know how concave and convex is defined. After reading so many of these I am not entirely sure there is agreement.
Attachment 331863
I totally understand the commercial aspect of the plates/stones/etc. Which is why I find it interesting, but for my face will use flatish stones that start to dip in the middle with use until I can't get a comfy edge and flatten it again.
Personally, I don't care how a razor maker hones the final edge so long as my face says it is shave ready. I also don't care if the razor comes with a shave ready certificate from the maker for the same reason. When the consensus in the shaving community says your edges are sub par then they probably are. The only way to fix that is correct the problem at source and supply decent edges. If you can't do that then you'll eventually lose business no matter how you whine on about honing.
Bob
That was me Bill. Another issue with domed hones is how do you get the heel in contact with the hone? The toe too for that matter. I was looking at a video on another forum of a proponent using one of Jarrod’s hones. He was using a flat sliding stroke and the heel came off the hone almost immediately, and the toe never contacted the center of the hone until the last 1” or so of the stroke.
No wonder that it caused frowns, the only part getting honed is the middle. This is the image from post #2 - how can you not make a frown?
Honestly, only kinda. I mean, I think you experts know what the definition is, but I am not sure everyone on the internet does.
The way a razor is discussed it usually seems like in my little picture it would be a convex stone with a concave bevel. And, the way you describe Jarrod's plates, I think you would agree with that, right? But, I have a pair of scissors with a "convex bevel" that seems to be the opposite of that.
Edit: Per Steve's picture I guess I don't even know which way you con____ the hone. I should have just listened to me yesterday and stayed out of this. Sorry.
The most ridiculous part of it all imo is someone saying these guys "know" what theyr doing and we are not smart enough to realize we are wrong. Show me the money! Is what I say. Lead by example then and put a decent edge on. Or say they need honing before use as has been proposed by many as well.
Just to clarify
There are two issues being discussed here,,
#1 Dovo and most other Production razors are simply NOT shave ready, nor have they really ever been, in the last few years Dovo has become so bad that they are sending out Frowned razors .. This is unacceptable considering when a new guy sends his razor out to be fixed it voids their warranty.. They also don't see this as out of spec and won't replace the razor if the new guy tries.. I have even gone so far as to give these new guys' the pics of their razors with the frowns to send to Dovo before I fixed them to see if they would replace it..
I made a point of it a few years ago, at that point in time Jarrod took it upon himself to defend Dovo and attack me, using my name to garner hits on his site and YouTube
Basically he was saying "Don't believe your lying eyes" as to what the Dovo Honing vid was showing between the Platen grind and the Convex hone
#2 Jarrod once again doubled down by making his junk science claims about Convex Honing and used my name along with Steve and Marty to garner more hits to sell this idea, Basing it on this statement "The Solingen Masters have been using this technique for years"
I fired back with "If and when those "Masters" can produce a Shave Ready edge and no frowns I MIGHT start to listen" Until then Learn to hone and stop the BS...
Now we all of a sudden have Mysterious German guys hitting the shave fora with the same style of writing and same junk science
As I explained earlier no more nicey nice... I am going to call it as I see it..
Yes, that’s true, but you don’t need a convex hone to do that.
They’re honing the cr@p out of the middle of the razor; look at the black swarf on the stone. Most of it is in the middle, that’s where most of the honing is happening, not at the heel or toe or the edges if the hone would be as black as the middle.
I can't say much about Dovo current production standards as they are right now. I have one Dovo I bought a decade ago, it shaved well when I bought it and had no frown issues. There do seem to be more complaints against Dovo recently, I think this warrants some kind of thoughtful conversation/inquiry. It would be nice if Dovo could address this in some form of statement, what they consider shave ready, is a small frown acceptable, etc.
There's obviously some personal animosity between some parties here and in other places. I've always had a pleasant experience here, and I have had some back and forth conversation with the well known Dovo reseller mentioned in this thread, this was also pleasant. But all this is secondary to the objective truth or falsity of various claims made.
As far as the convex hones go I have a few observations:
- Any hone, flat, convex or concave, can either fail or succeed in producing a 'shave ready' edge. People hone edges, not stones.
- It does seem that the convex hone is an old idea and the people in Solingen obviously feel as if there is some utility to it. This apparent utility would remain regardless of whether the edges they produce are shave ready.
- Solingen is capable of producing non-frowned razors on convex hones as evidenced by past razor production.
- By my calculations, the amount of concavity imparted to the edge bevel from a convex hone would appear to be extremely small.