Thread: Scratches on the bevel after natual finishier, too much pressure?

Originally Posted by mrjin

Hi all, I'm new here. Fairly new to straight razors, so not sure what was cause the bevel being scratched off natural finisher. The bevels are mirror finished just off synthetic stones, but I feel the edge is a little bit too harsh so moved onto naturals. I've 3 CNAT from different sources, all of which are actually very fine, the surfaces has been flattened correctly and smoothed with high grit synthetics(Shapton Pro 12k). After the CNAT, the edge is actually much better, except the bevels are now with minor scratches if I look closely. I feel it should be cause by pressing the center of the razor a bit so that I can sharpen it correctly. Note that the razor is a Dovo Astrale, the edge is warped by about 0.5mm in the center part. It came shave ready so I did not notice it until months later it need a touch up, would have returned it if I spotted it in time.

Like you, I tend to prefer the edges off natural stones better than synthetics, which can be harsh.

1. Wnen a heat treated razor is quenched following heat treatment, the thin edge cools far more quickly than the spine. Thus, the edge is harder than the spine. If you apply too much pressure on the spine when honing, you will cause more wear than necessary. While you must always keep the spine on the hone, torque the razor slightly so the edge receives more pressure.

2. Shapton uses a different grit rating than some other makers of synthetic hones. The 30K Shapton is similar to a Suehiro Gokumyo 20K. The 16K Shapton is similar to a Naniwa 12K. The 12K Shapton is somewhere betweeen a Naniwa 8K and 10K. Thus, your Shapton 12K might not be quite as high in grit as you believe. If you have a good Chinese Guangxi stone, it should be close to a 12K Naniwa (16K Shapton) in scratch pattern, but provide a less harsh edge.

3. Dovo claims that all of their razors come "shave ready" from the factory. In fact, they state that having your razor honed by someone who is not factory certified will void the warranty. I only have one Dovo razor, but it was nowhere close to being shave ready by my standards.

4. It is not uncommon to have some degree of warpage in a razor. Generally, you can compensate for the warp by varying your honing strokes to insure all of the blade receives adequate attention.

5. Always strop your blade before testing it. If you like your blades super smooth, you might want to consider getting some pasted strops. Ultra fine abrasives like Chromium Oxide, Polycrystaline Diamond, and Cubic Boron Nitride (CBN) can be used to polish the edge to a mirror finish. The wavelength of visible light averages 0.5 micron, so to achieve a true mirror polish, the blade has to be polished with abrasives finer than 0.5 micron. I polish my edges with 0.5, 0.25 and 0.1 micron CBN on microfiber strops. Due to the octahedral shape of diamond crystals, they can be rather abrasive. Thus, it is common to apply diamond pastes and sprays to lapped balsa. The soft grain of the balsa allows the diamond crystals to partially embed in the surface. This reduces the aggressiveness of the abrasive. CBN is not quite as harsh as diamond, so it can be used with other substrates. The 0.5 micron abrasive is equivalent to 60 K. Even using this level should improve your edge. You can often find green polishing compounds in your local hardware store. While they contain some Chromium Oxide, they also contain other abrasives such as silica and are not hearly as fine as 0.5 micron Chromium Oxide. Thus, if you want to use CrOx be sure to get it from a reputable source selling it for razor stropping.

Originally Posted by RayClem

Like you, I tend to prefer the edges off natural stones better than synthetics, which can be harsh.

1. Wnen a heat treated razor is quenched following heat treatment, the thin edge cools far more quickly than the spine. Thus, the edge is harder than the spine. If you apply too much pressure on the spine when honing, you will cause more wear than necessary. While you must always keep the spine on the hone, torque the razor slightly so the edge receives more pressure.

2. Shapton uses a different grit rating than some other makers of synthetic hones. The 30K Shapton is similar to a Suehiro Gokumyo 20K. The 16K Shapton is similar to a Naniwa 12K. The 12K Shapton is somewhere betweeen a Naniwa 8K and 10K. Thus, your Shapton 12K might not be quite as high in grit as you believe. If you have a good Chinese Guangxi stone, it should be close to a 12K Naniwa (16K Shapton) in scratch pattern, but provide a less harsh edge.

3. Dovo claims that all of their razors come "shave ready" from the factory. In fact, they state that having your razor honed by someone who is not factory certified will void the warranty. I only have one Dovo razor, but it was nowhere close to being shave ready by my standards.

4. It is not uncommon to have some degree of warpage in a razor. Generally, you can compensate for the warp by varying your honing strokes to insure all of the blade receives adequate attention.

5. Always strop your blade before testing it. If you like your blades super smooth, you might want to consider getting some pasted strops. Ultra fine abrasives like Chromium Oxide, Polycrystaline Diamond, and Cubic Boron Nitride (CBN) can be used to polish the edge to a mirror finish. The wavelength of visible light averages 0.5 micron, so to achieve a true mirror polish, the blade has to be polished with abrasives finer than 0.5 micron. I polish my edges with 0.5, 0.25 and 0.1 micron CBN on microfiber strops. Due to the octahedral shape of diamond crystals, they can be rather abrasive. Thus, it is common to apply diamond pastes and sprays to lapped balsa. The soft grain of the balsa allows the diamond crystals to partially embed in the surface. This reduces the aggressiveness of the abrasive. CBN is not quite as harsh as diamond, so it can be used with other substrates. The 0.5 micron abrasive is equivalent to 60 K. Even using this level should improve your edge. You can often find green polishing compounds in your local hardware store. While they contain some Chromium Oxide, they also contain other abrasives such as silica and are not hearly as fine as 0.5 micron Chromium Oxide. Thus, if you want to use CrOx be sure to get it from a reputable source selling it for razor stropping.

Thanks for the super looooooooooong writing.

1. I wasn't pressing the spine but rather the edge to make it fully touching the stone. So far I don't see any obvious worn to the spine. Actually I already deemed it as a total loss when I found the edge was warped. I'm going to try your method on next sharpening to see if that going to be easier than what I was doing.

2. You were most likely right about Shapton. I have a Taidea 15K according to other members, it's pretty close to 30K Shapton is similar to a Suehiro Gokumyo 20K, but I cannot really tell the difference between the Shapton and Taidea. The edges off both can handle my chin area without any problems but I just don't like the feel. I'm tempted to get a set of Naniwa, but not really sure if I should get a 3rd set of stones. I have 4 different CNATs from different sources but none of them is Guangxi stone I believe. I just closely inspected the CNATs and it turned out that the stria from my 1K diamond plate wasn't completely removed. So I used a progression of sandpapers and 10k synthetic stone to smooth out the surface again. Still not sure if that is going to help though.

3. I have no doubt of that. Though My Dovo came more or less shave ready really as I used it directly, 2 or 3 times per weeks for around 3 months before I feel a little bit dragging when shaving my chin. But when I tried to hone it, I immediately noticed that the edge was warped, the bevel was super uneven, and I felt there was no quality control at all. Most importantly, the edges I get are for sure much better than the one from the factory. I did not know that was going to void the warranty but I would still do it if I knew it.

4. I'm not sure if we were talking about the same thing. What I meant was that if you look directly toward the edge, the center of the edge is closer to one side of the spine than the other. It's not the edge was like a smile of frown.

5. This one I'm not sure. I played with lots diamond pastes, diamond emulsions from 5 micron to 0.1 micron, CrOx paste etc, now I have so much that can probably be passed down several generations. Along the way, I have learnt lots of subtle differences between different standards. Haven't tried CBN yet as I could not get any. I did all those diamond paste progressions etc, but I found that the edges were full of micro chips after stropping on diamond pasted leather strops a couple of times by inspect the reflections under strong light. The edge off diamond pasted strop are more keen but more harsh too. Haven' tried diamond pasted balsa yet. To me touching up on naturals every month or two actually works very well for me. Now I only strop on plain leather paddle strop. I feel like to try a good hanging strop with both linen and leather though.

It's a really really long journey and it's equally fun to find out either something really works for me or something does not work at all.

Hey, I'm considering get Gok 20K or Shapton 30K, both are almost same grit size and price, I'm wondering if you have any experience on any of them?

I do have a Suehiro GK20K. It does produce a very sharp, very smooth edge. However, I cannot say that it is any better than other stones followed by pasted strops.

For a while, it was difficult getting CBN. Ken Schwartz was the primary promoter of this method and he passed away. I recently found that KME has several emulstions in stock along with kangaroo leather strops.

https://www.kmesharp.com/cbnemulsions.html

Diamond pasted strops can be overly aggressive. If you apply too much paste or spray to the substrate, it can be too aggressive and you will get microchipping. The same thing can happen if you use too many strokes. That is why I use CBN pastes and sprays. They do not seem to be quite as aggressive and are not as prone to microchipping. Thus, they are more forgiving.



Microchipping, however, depends upon how the razor steel is heat treated. I have one razor that microchips no matter how I hone it. I think the steel was improperly heat treated. Other razors will take a super sharp edge without microchipping.

Never try to make a razor sharper than you need it to comfortably shave your beard. I have a very tough beard and very sensitive skin. That is why I like super sharp, super smooth edges. Unfortunately, the downsize of producing such an edge is that it will only stand up to a few shaves before it needs to be refreshed.

Originally Posted by RayClem

I do have a Suehiro GK20K. It does produce a very sharp, very smooth edge. However, I cannot say that it is any better than other stones followed by pasted strops.

For a while, it was difficult getting CBN. Ken Schwartz was the primary promoter of this method and he passed away. I recently found that KME has several emulstions in stock along with kangaroo leather strops.

https://www.kmesharp.com/cbnemulsions.html

Diamond pasted strops can be overly aggressive. If you apply too much paste or spray to the substrate, it can be too aggressive and you will get microchipping. The same thing can happen if you use too many strokes. That is why I use CBN pastes and sprays. They do not seem to be quite as aggressive and are not as prone to microchipping. Thus, they are more forgiving.



Microchipping, however, depends upon how the razor steel is heat treated. I have one razor that microchips no matter how I hone it. I think the steel was improperly heat treated. Other razors will take a super sharp edge without microchipping.

Never try to make a razor sharper than you need it to comfortably shave your beard. I have a very tough beard and very sensitive skin. That is why I like super sharp, super smooth edges. Unfortunately, the downsize of producing such an edge is that it will only stand up to a few shaves before it needs to be refreshed.

Thanks for all the tips. I think I've just got to the bottom of the rabbit hole. Initially my honing technique wasn't quite there and thus need to strop to get a shave ready edge. Started with CrOx paste, thought it was too slow. The got some 0.25micron emulsion and found the edge off it was too harsh, started looking for 0.1micron stuffs, ended up with 4 sets of them from different sources and some 0.1micron alumina powder and 0.01 ZrOx powder. Though I'm happy with the edge off 0.1 micron diamond at the begining, but it became harsh again after a month or two coz I tended to strop before shaving on the 0.1micron diamond. So obviously I stropped too many passes eventually and micro chips occurred. So I turned to natural stones, and also my honing skill got better and don't really need to strop after off the finisher. Then I realized the bevel got scratched on the naturals and that's why this thread was here.

My skin is also super sensitive too. I was using cartridge razors. They were okay but got pretty bad in the last a couple of years. So I started looking for a straight razor. My beard isn't that thick, so it can last around 2 month if I shave 2 to 3 times a week and it only takes ~10 time to touch up on a natural. So it's not bad at all. So far, I don't feel I need a Gok 20K or Shapton 30k, but you know, I just want to have one. I'll also check the CBN you mentioned too.

Originally Posted by mrjin

Hey, I'm considering get Gok 20K or Shapton 30K, both are almost same grit size and price, I'm wondering if you have any experience on any of them?

I have a Gok 20k as well. It produces beautiful edges for sure. Best in the synthetic world IMO.
If you are having a problem with embeded grit in your stones I would figure that out first.
The Gok doesn't release embeded grit easily.
Do NOT use the cleaning or conditioning stone it comes with, it can make the base stone agressive and not nearly as nice an edge will come from it.
If you wish to clean off swarf and such, either a scotchbrite pad or a tomo stone of good quality will work best.
Do NOT try to use w/d paper to lap it - it will embed grit. An atoma is recommended from the mfg. A 400 I believe. I have used the 1200 Atoma and had no problems either.
One of the nice things about the Gok is you can go to it from a decent 8k and in 20-30 strokes you have a fantastic shaving edge.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

I have a Gok 20k as well. It produces beautiful edges for sure. Best in the synthetic world IMO.
If you are having a problem with embeded grit in your stones I would figure that out first.
The Gok doesn't release embeded grit easily.
Do NOT use the cleaning or conditioning stone it comes with, it can make the base stone agressive and not nearly as nice an edge will come from it.
If you wish to clean off swarf and such, either a scotchbrite pad or a tomo stone of good quality will work best.
Do NOT try to use w/d paper to lap it - it will embed grit. An atoma is recommended from the mfg. A 400 I believe. I have used the 1200 Atoma and had no problems either.
One of the nice things about the Gok is you can go to it from a decent 8k and in 20-30 strokes you have a fantastic shaving edge.

Thanks for the tips. I wish I had seen your no w/d paper suggestion earlier. But I was having problems with naturals, so it's relatively easy to fix. Also, I probably should not have used the new 1K diamond plate neither. The scratches left by the large gits on the diamond plate most likely contributed most of the problems in this thread. So many gotchas and so much fun to learn.

Pulled the trigger for the Shapton 30K, although I feel it might become a $400 paperweight.

Originally Posted by RayClem

I do have a Suehiro GK20K. It does produce a very sharp, very smooth edge. However, I cannot say that it is any better than other stones followed by pasted strops.

For a while, it was difficult getting CBN. Ken Schwartz was the primary promoter of this method and he passed away. I recently found that KME has several emulstions in stock along with kangaroo leather strops.

https://www.kmesharp.com/cbnemulsions.html

Diamond pasted strops can be overly aggressive. If you apply too much paste or spray to the substrate, it can be too aggressive and you will get microchipping. The same thing can happen if you use too many strokes. That is why I use CBN pastes and sprays. They do not seem to be quite as aggressive and are not as prone to microchipping. Thus, they are more forgiving.



Microchipping, however, depends upon how the razor steel is heat treated. I have one razor that microchips no matter how I hone it. I think the steel was improperly heat treated. Other razors will take a super sharp edge without microchipping.

Never try to make a razor sharper than you need it to comfortably shave your beard. I have a very tough beard and very sensitive skin. That is why I like super sharp, super smooth edges. Unfortunately, the downsize of producing such an edge is that it will only stand up to a few shaves before it needs to be refreshed.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

I have a Gok 20k as well. It produces beautiful edges for sure. Best in the synthetic world IMO.
If you are having a problem with embeded grit in your stones I would figure that out first.
The Gok doesn't release embeded grit easily.
Do NOT use the cleaning or conditioning stone it comes with, it can make the base stone agressive and not nearly as nice an edge will come from it.
If you wish to clean off swarf and such, either a scotchbrite pad or a tomo stone of good quality will work best.
Do NOT try to use w/d paper to lap it - it will embed grit. An atoma is recommended from the mfg. A 400 I believe. I have used the 1200 Atoma and had no problems either.
One of the nice things about the Gok is you can go to it from a decent 8k and in 20-30 strokes you have a fantastic shaving edge.

Just received the Shapton 30K. It seems to be made on demand as I had to wait around 1month before it's shipped and the stamp wasn't dried on arrival. It came with surfaces reflecting light like mirror but still not flat and need lapping. I did not notice that and directly lapped the side without stamp without any protection. Thus after finished lapping the stamps got smudged a little bit.

While I was waiting for the Shapton 30K, I order a Naniwa Gouken Kurouto 1K and a Naniwa Gouken Kagayaki 12K both arrived before the Shapton 30k. Did fresh honing from bevel setting on 3 different razors, the result was quite surprising to me.

Naniwa Gouken Kurouto 1K is a superb bevel setter, got the jobs done in just around 20 laps but it seemed to have left a couple stria of 600 or so, as I never manage to remove after. It might be me did not spend enough time on 2K stone though. No the concern here.

Naniwa Gouken Kagayaki 12 behaved quite weirdly. Mirror finish, buttery like shaving but left lots micro nicks on my faces. No bleeding, no harsh feeling but could be easily picked up by Alum block. Micro nicks went away after stropping with CrOx or finishing on naturals. 3 razors behaved exactly the same, not sure why.

Shapton Pro 12K. Did some additional research. Mine was a Japanese version, and the similar one for other part of the world are marked as 15K according to some forums. As mentioned before, this one needs stropping on CrOx or finishing on naturals. But if I shaved directly of it, there would much less micro nicks on my face.

Taidea 15K. Seems to be finer than Shapton Pro 12K but still needs stropping on CrOx or finishing on naturals. Feels smoother than Shapton Pro 12K, but still not quite there. Like Shapton Pro 12K, much less micro nicks than Naniwa Kagayagi 12k. This was from my memory as the replacement hasn't arrived yet.

Shapton Pro 30K. I tested it with on razor off the naturals, which was still shave ready. Went 10 laps on each side. The shave off it was a little bit better than that off naturals but hard to tell how much, less or same level of micro nicks than that off naturals. I might have to retest it again after the razor needs touching up.

Seems my shaving technique needs some improvements too, as though there was no bleeding, there were still occasionally micro nicks.