Thread: The taste of humble pie

Folks, I'm in a slump.
Not with straight edges/modern razors. But I am definitely getting nowhere, or somewhere weird with too much effort, with some of my oldies.

In such cases such as this, I often think it's time to step back and check my assumptions, share them with enlightened minds and see what falls through the sieve.

Now, what I expect, in best case scenarios, is a thin regular bevel, that "bites" at 1k/2k, shaves my very thin arm hairs after BBW, and then it's finishing time.
So far, most of the time, my routine works beautifully with only a few laps at low grits, 50 laps on BBW and then we're at a point where the more the merrier, with little risk to damage the blade.
Even hard steels, such as Swedish steel, don't take that much in low grits.

I won't buy a razor with a flat on the back, and it is my assumption that in such cases, the original geometry should be correct from "factory setting" and the bevel should be thin without the addition of any tape.
Which is why I only put one layer, just to protect the back.

But I've been struggling with a few oldies, as I said.
For example, I have been working on a Lund yesterday, and immedialty the bevel came quite large. Like 1/10" 2/3mm large.
And I struggled, really struggled, to make it bite.
There was this thin thread of light at the top of the bevel on some parts, that I, once again assume being the bevel not thin enough, that I had a hard time getting rid of.

Weirdly enough for oldies, there did not seem to be any kind of original bevel.


And I see no indication that the geometry has been tempered with.

In the end, I thought I had reached the "post BBW" stage, but trying to shave after the whole finishing (coti, purple llyn, DGS) told me otherwise.

On another group of razors (6 of them, used to be the property of the same person), I have the feeling they have been "freehand honed", because "flat honing" would not give a consistent edge or bevel, particularly at the center of the blade. In the end, on the one I did achieve to get out, I thing I added 2 layers of tape. The same thing happens on all 6, even though there are 4 wedges and 2 rattlers.

I know some of my friends over here have stopped honing oldies for others because they think they are "a hit and a miss". But with 10 blades on the bench, all of them high quality, that I can't get a good shave of, I think there might be something with my technique.

So have at it, criticize, poke holes in my reasoning. I'm depressed enough as is not to feel the burn too much lol.

Your Reasoning is solid

Prove it with the Magic Marker Test

The MMT is an invaluable tool when working with unknown Bevels, it will show you exactly what is going on with the edges

I actually got in an argument with one of your countrymen about lifted spine honing on FB so YES it is a good possibility that idea has spread

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Hmmm, darn, I just wrote a long response and then did something wrong and lost it all!

Oh well, start with what Glen has suggested. That should start to give some answers.

I feel certain lots of those old 'hunk O steel' blades were originally honed with lifted spines. Then we have wonky spines fron day one or as a result of pasted strops, uneven pressure as attemts at honing, etc.
After kicking my ass, I revisit them with a wide bevel with no tape and look at things. Most times, I see uneven spines.

Mostly, I tape the spine and go at that thing again and stop when the tape is almost worn through in spots. Tape again. Repeat. I don't worry about the bevel until I get a even wear pattern on the tape. I even lift the edge a bit and do hard circles.
Then, a top replacable layer of tape on top and go a bit. Usually, I will undercut the bevel a bit with compound on a small felt wheel and go over and over until things look reasonable.

When I get them to go, I sometimes have 3 layers of really worn tape and a top layer. I polish the bevel and finish.
Touch-ups don't work unless the spine is lifted so I usually just strop them into submission. Your fairly straight spine is gone as the tape is removed! It sucks and takes forever.

That's why I like the older regrinds on them. They figured it out and corrected it.

A lot of older English razors like the Lunds are ?heavy grind?, meaning that they are thick behind the bevel. If the razor had been honed with a lifted spine, or a thumbnail under the spine, the bevel will be narrow just as if you added multiple layers of tape. Now if you hone the same razor with no tape or one thin layer, the bevel will widen because the hone is hitting more toward the shoulder of the bevel and re-cutting it. I?ve seen this many times before.

The shiny line at the apex is a fin, foil, or whatever one wants to call it, but it amounts to unstable steel and if it is not removed and the edge straight and even off the finisher the edge will likely not be as smooth as it could be. I?ve also seen this kind of steel behaviour before too, including missing sections of this fin at grits above 8-12k, especially after stropping. So I do not believe this is your honing skills causing this line.

First, I?d start by measuring the bevel angle. Old razors seem to vary a lot in their spine thicknesses, and I have both German and French razors that have spines that are too thin (bevel angle too low) to support an edge off a fine finisher, but tape fixes it at some point. Next, try adding electrical tape, which adds about 1 degree of bevel angle for 1 layer with most razor widths. Re-hone and check to see if the shiny line is gone or better. Repeat until you get to 3-4 layers. If the shiny line is there at 3-4 layers, and the bevel angle is normal (16-20degrees with the tape) I would start thinking that the temper is not good.

Another issue with old razors that have wear is that the spine is worn unevenly from narrow hones and pasted strops and will be thicker over the heel than at the toe. This can cause a good bit of difficulty getting the stone to hit all parts of the bevel evenly, especially if there?s also some warping or bending of the blade. Calipers and a loupe to observe the bevel scratches as you go ip the grits can help you tell if your razor has these problems.

Finally, of you hone a known good razor the same way and it does not show problems, that indicates that the other razor(s) have issues.

Good luck,

Steve

I assume your hones are flat and lapped. Have you tried inking the edge? That is my first step with bevel weirdness. Of course bevel angle check would be helpful. Might want to ink the spine too and do a lap or two. In addition to showing spots where the spine is wonky that makes it easier to measure blade width. Just speaking personally, if the geometry is out of whack it is easier to judge where the spine hits the stone and measure from there especially if there is a lot of hone wear which yours diesn't look to have. It's not in hand though, pics can be deceptive. Its also possible it has been sanded out and hidden.

I like narrow hones for this purpose, at least for a warped blade or crooked grind at the spine. I had some pics somewhere of an old sheffield with geometry problems, turned out to be a warp. Bevel was wide in the middle on one side and at the toe and heel on the other but the rise/run measurements were even along the length. Narrow hones can help here but problem is you need narrow ones the whole way up. Alternatively you can hone along the first quarter of a wider hone. Regardless of what you do, remembering what you did is a trick when you go back. I have never been good at log keeping. I'm more of an in the moment guy but that means figuring it out every time.

All of this quality feedback is very much appreciated.
I'll try again... Soon-ish (it's not that often that I have quality time for quality honing).

And I'll keep you posted.

I believe in you sir. I know you can lick it.