Thread: Can I use these

I have a Shapton Pro 5k and a Kitayama 8k/12k stone. These should be alright to use for initial honing. Now here is the question.

There has always been a debate as to actual grit rating of the Kitayama. Some say 8k, some 12k. A knowledgeable person over at KnifeForums, who really knows their stuff and is a geologist (I think), has a theory that during intital work the stone is an 8k, but as the mud is worked, it breaks down and winds up being 12k.

If this is true it would be very difficult to use this stone during an 8k/12k pyramid, as you would have to do a few passes at 8k, work the nagura stone up for mud to 12k, do a few passes, clean the stone off and then go at it all over again. This would suggest getting a finer finishing stone, an option I would like to avoid.

Can I do a pyramid between the 5k and the Kitayama, and then work the Kitayama up to 12k, and then finish with CrO2 or diamond paste on a polished granite reference stone? There is a technique that uses (believe it or not!) Post-It notes paper as a holding vehicle for the compounds on a reference plate, which makes using various grit sizes on one piece of granite easy; just lift off one piece of paper and replace with a different charged piece. These can be saved for several sessions, and then replaced.

What say you? Good ideas, bad ideas? Any other possibilities? Also, anyone familiar with any of the boron based polishing compounds? Are there any benefits or negatives to them?

Originally Posted by BertMor

A knowledgeable person over at KnifeForums, who really knows their stuff and is a geologist (I think), has a theory that during intital work the stone is an 8k, but as the mud is worked, it breaks down and winds up being 12k.

this is true. if you keep the stone clean it will be 8k if you use it with slurry it will grind down to 12k. how fast this happens i don't know, and will you overhone your razor trying to get it to 12k...who knows? if you have CrO2 and boron then don't bother with the slurry.

i have a boron pasted paddle strop labelled as 1.8 microns

Originally Posted by BertMor

I have a Shapton Pro 5k and a Kitayama 8k/12k stone. These should be alright to use for initial honing. Now here is the question.

There has always been a debate as to actual grit rating of the Kitayama. Some say 8k, some 12k. A knowledgeable person over at KnifeForums, who really knows their stuff and is a geologist (I think), has a theory that during intital work the stone is an 8k, but as the mud is worked, it breaks down and winds up being 12k.

If this is true it would be very difficult to use this stone during an 8k/12k pyramid, as you would have to do a few passes at 8k, work the nagura stone up for mud to 12k, do a few passes, clean the stone off and then go at it all over again. This would suggest getting a finer finishing stone, an option I would like to avoid.

Can I do a pyramid between the 5k and the Kitayama, and then work the Kitayama up to 12k, and then finish with CrO2 or diamond paste on a polished granite reference stone? There is a technique that uses (believe it or not!) Post-It notes paper as a holding vehicle for the compounds on a reference plate, which makes using various grit sizes on one piece of granite easy; just lift off one piece of paper and replace with a different charged piece. These can be saved for several sessions, and then replaced.

What say you? Good ideas, bad ideas? Any other possibilities? Also, anyone familiar with any of the boron based polishing compounds? Are there any benefits or negatives to them?

I have never actually done the pyrimid properly anyway, I just progress to finer and finer hones. You could hone this way. I wouldn't bother though since you have some really nice finishing compounds at your disposal. I'm not sure the post-it will work, paper as a holder for the compounds will, but the glue strip on a post-it might effect as delicate an edge as a straight razor when backed by as hard a surface as a reference plate they also can develop an undesirable curl opposite the glue. The most common way to use these compounds is with a bench strop, a piece of flat 7-9oz leather mounted on a flat board (contact cement works well) with a different one for each grit of course.

Well, the sharpening medium is mixed with a hand sanitizer, I think, I have to go check exactly what they are using. That wets the paper, holds the sharpening medium, and keeps the paper flat to the reference plate. Some people just use the reference plate without the paper, let it dry, and use it another time. The adhesive is actually no problem at all, and the Post-It has the right consistency so it doesn't curl.

Well, I don't know. The kitayama is a pretty fine grained manmade ceramic hone and I suspect the particales that come off it are very small. Somehow I don't think honing on a razor will grind down the particales that much to really change the characteristics of the hone. remember its not just the particle size but the hardness of the hone materials that does the work. They both work together. Also when you hone, especially on a finishing hone your not using any real pressure so it might take a whole bunch of honing to reduce the particles that much if at all. Also if that was the case with the Kitayama why would it not be the case with any other hone out there? Is there something so special about the Kitayama? I have one and use it with slurry and find it to act pretty much like a 12K. Also being a geologist has noting to do with artificial ceramics, maybe if he's a sedimentologist its remotely related. Its like asking a proctologist for advice on brain surgery. I'm a geologist also but I won't claim to know my stuff, ever.

natural stones act that way too. i was informed by So Yamashita that you want to use a hard stone so that the slurry breaks down faster than new slurry is produced. a hard stone releases less particles than a soft stone

i can't say exactly what the kitayama does. i never got around to using mine. just saying what i read on other knife forums

Firstly, I find that the Kitayama is a relatively soft stone. Not the softest, but not very hard either, it is easily gouged. Secondly, when honing with a razor, I would work the mud rather a long time before putting blade to stone, giving the slurry a chance to break down first, without over honing. I'm not suggesting the Kitayama is 'special,' but its what I have and an seeking to use it to its best advantage. As for being a geologist, this person has a pretty thorough understanding of how these ceramic stones are made, what they are made of, their characteristics, plus she speaks fluent Japanese. Makes for a pretty good combo to do amateur sleuthing on what all these stones do while we use them.

Actually another aspect might be the shape of the grains in a stone. Diamond is ver sharp, some of the ceramics are flaky, and garnet type stones have very rounded shapes. Each of these produce a unique type of scratch pattern, even when the size is relatively equal. Just another data point in the search for SHARP>

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well, I don't know. The kitayama is a pretty fine grained manmade ceramic hone and I suspect the particales that come off it are very small. Somehow I don't think honing on a razor will grind down the particales that much to really change the characteristics of the hone. remember its not just the particle size but the hardness of the hone materials that does the work. They both work together. Also when you hone, especially on a finishing hone your not using any real pressure so it might take a whole bunch of honing to reduce the particles that much if at all. Also if that was the case with the Kitayama why would it not be the case with any other hone out there? Is there something so special about the Kitayama? I have one and use it with slurry and find it to act pretty much like a 12K. Also being a geologist has noting to do with artificial ceramics, maybe if he's a sedimentologist its remotely related. Its like asking a proctologist for advice on brain surgery. I'm a geologist also but I won't claim to know my stuff, ever.

Sounds like you are already set upon your course of action.

Good luck!

Any other....questions?

Not at all. But I am looking for convincing arguments on which way to go. If the Kitayama is a viable alternative, great, but if I need a finer stone than thats the way to go. Or can I eliminate a stone and go straight to CrO2 or diamond paste? I'm searching for what works in a forest of opinions.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Sounds like you are already set upon your course of action.

Good luck!

Any other....questions?