Thread: Help with honing

Hi all,

I am pretty new to honing and I need some tips. I've read many threads here and on B&B, including the big guides & FAQs, but clearly something's not working right for me, as the razor just isn't that sharp.

Here's my setup:
Dovo razor
Norton 4k/8k with flattening and prep stones (norton is well lapped)
Spyderco Ultrafine
Heirloom strop
RadioShack hand held 60-100x microscope

The Dovo was originally honed when purchased at Well Shaved Gentleman. A month or two later sergiobruna honed it for me with great results. When I finally got my stones, I decided to give it a go.

First thing to note, one side of the razor does not lay perfectly flat against the stone (the other side does). I can get the edge to be flat on the stone if I tilt up the toe-end of the spine a bit (1mm?). When I honed, I put the edge flat and left the spine at the toe-end slightly raised. Is this advised? If not, what should I do to correct?

Next, the bevel. To try to form the bevel, I used the method AFDavis11 posted. Looking under the microscope, the bevel looks nice and even. I don't see a double bevel or overhoning, as far as I can discern. When I test the razor on my thumb at this point, it sure feels sharp. However, even at 60x I can see lots of places where the edge is jagged. I assume this is the reason the razor is not sharp? Does the jagged edge mean I need to hone even more on the Norton 4k?

One aspect of honing I do not fully understand from my readings is when to move up in grit. I have tried the various tests (thumb pad, marker, hair, microscope) but I am not sure when I should expect what results. Also, I have never had the razor pass the hanging hair test. Perhaps it's my hair?

I guess that's a good description to get things going. Any advice is really appreciated!

First off, welcome! It looks like you've got a great setup as far as equipment goes. I'm pretty green on this stuff, but FWIW, here's what I can gather, and hopefully more experienced members can help you out a bit more:

Originally Posted by bromion

When I honed, I put the edge flat and left the spine at the toe-end slightly raised. Is this advised? If not, what should I do to correct?

Big no-no. The only reasons I can think of for the bevel to rest unevenly against the hone are (1) your hone is not flat - cross check on all your hones to maybe see if this is the case, and (2) some honemeisters apply a thin strip of electrical or similar tape to the spine when honing to protect the spine, which raises it up slightly. You will need to do the same to achieve the same bevel if this is the case.

But the edge and spine must both always be touching the hone, otherwise you have a very very slim chance of achieving a uniform bevel.

One aspect of honing I do not fully understand from my readings is when to move up in grit. I have tried the various tests (thumb pad, marker, hair, microscope) but I am not sure when I should expect what results.

I have found the TNT (thumbnail test) to be a good indicator of when the bevel is ready to move on up to a pyramid honing style alternating between the 4k and 8k. I have seen it mentioned that it is good practice to backhone 1 stroke toward the end of the bevel-setting, and then do 6-7 more normal strokes to get rid of any wire edge that may have formed (can anyone else please validate?) If your edge gives you a smooth slice across your fingernail and you feel no imperfections, proceed to the pyramid method described in detail HERE.
The pyramid method will almost guarantee you a good edge off the Norton.

You can comfortably shave after completing a successful pyramid on the Norton, but this is where your Spyderco UF* will come in handy for a polish. It cuts fast, so you will only need 10-15 passes, then strop it up and you should be all set!
*The Spyderco is notorious for being difficult to lap. Make sure it's actually flat, since they state that they come flat from the factory, but that is often not the case. Mine took 5 hours to lap with a DMT D8C.

I would suggest using the thumb-pad test throughout, just so you start to get some familiarity with how your edge is progressing as you move between the hones. After you hone a bunch of razors, you will begin to get a feel for how they feel on your thumbpad and relate that to how well it will shave. Don't use the thumbnail test after you begin the pyramid as it may dull the edge.

I hope this helps! I am confident in the information I have posted, but as always, if any more experienced member disagrees, I'd take their advice over mine.

Night!

I have to agree that you're off to a good start. You have the right equipment, and you've used a well-honed razor. Move to the front of the class.

It sounds like your edge now needs some work, though, for whatever reason. The roughness is a bad sign. Does it look like there are actual chips, or do you think the roughness is a result of a wire edge or something?

If there are small chips, I'd recommend sticking with the 4K until the edge is smooth and straight at 60x.

Once you have it looking straight, try doing a pyramid as described in the FAQ at the top of this forum. The pyramid takes the mystery out of when to switch grits. It does a nice job of polishing your edge to a shaving-sharp level.

Let us know how things go; we'll coach you as you progress.

Josh

Thanks for the feedback so far. What should I do about the spine/edge contact problem?

Here's my status. Preview: still not getting a close shave.

I flattened and re-flattened my stones. One side of the blade was definitely not flush with the spine. I did some aggressive honing on the 4k to try to get it flush and got most of the way there. This took a long time (40 min? with all the rinsing, cleaning, etc). Now it's almost totally flat... though I am afraid I may have damaged the razor! Lots of honing on that side.

I gently honed on the 4k until the edge appeared straight under the 60x scope. There were still some nicks in the blade that I didn't try to get out since they were pretty big. Most areas were not jagged, though. This took around 30-40 passes. I moved up to the 8k and did some pyramid. Finally, I used the Spyderco for 10 passes.

The blade felt really sharp on my thumb but the shave was not satisfactory. Not terribly close and rough on my skin by the end.

Suggestions on what to look for from here?

Lots of empathy here Bromion. I am getting a little down about my honing at the mo! I have set the bevel on a couple of razors - probably 30 laps in the end up on 1000 grit. Pretty sure the bevel is set, used marker and TPT and looked under 60X microscope to see even edge. Then used the aggressive pyramid (Norton combi) as per instructions on site, then keep going back to a little lighter finish on the 8K as I try to get it to do the 'mow hair'. thought I had it last night but it shaved terribly, even when doing some popping of hairs and sticky on the TPT. Wish there was somebody close by to spend a day with - 'monkey see, monkey do' and all that. I want to get a good shave regularly by only using the norton at first and by all accounts I should be able to do that. My technique is not too bad I think - I can see a huge improvement as I now get lighter with the touch and keep the blade steady and smooth as she goes. Getting better all the time. Using marked edge and TPT as a regular test and have a really nice shaving razor that Poona honed as a bench mark. I presume that this is a bit like riding a bike - once it clicks it sticks. Can't wait! Any further advice welcome.