Identifying overhoning?

Tomorrow I'm gonna attempt my first honing :y :eek: . I have a couple of questions about over-honing, since I expect it's something I'll encounter. I'll be using a Norton 4K/8K.

Here's how I understand things. If a razor isn't sharp enough, it will evidently not pass the various sharpness tests. If an edge passes the tests coming straight off the 8K, or even 4K side, it's certainly sharp enough, but could be over-honed. If the edge is okay, after polishing on higher grits and stropping, it will shave well. If it's over-honed the edge will disintigrate while shaving and give a lousy shave.

I've read that sharp edges that are not well polished give an uncomfortable shave, so how might I tell if an edge is over-honed or simply needs more polishing on higher grits? Each one would not shave well, but do they each produce different effects/feelings? Is there a specific effect/feeling associated with each fault in the honing process?

Yea, but describing it a 5 am might be a big challenge. To me the blade feels "too sharp" painful and a little scratchy. It passes the HHT just fine. The next stage it actually starts feeling dull again. Somewhere in there it will feel like your shaving with a shard of glass. It really depends on the amount of overhoning, which is really easy to see with a microscope.

My definition of overhoning is that the razor has lost so much metal it looks funny.

Other than that, I don't have a problem with this mysterious secret thing others call "overhoning" because I don't think it really exists. Of course others will disagree.

If you hone the bevels into a point, the next step will be a bur, or wire-edge as some folks call it. This is not what I call overhoning, and I there is nothing mystical about it.

It is mainl created by honing on cutting stones. It is easily removed by back honing, or lots of X-Patterns on a good barber stone, like a Dixie or Swaty.

When you are forming your bevel with cutting stones, feel free to back hone as much as you like. The X-Pattern is a polishing pattern, not a cutting pattern, though you can use it for that.

Up to 8K I do lots of back-honing so that burrs don't develop.

On soft japanese stones, I exclusively back-hone. If you forward hone with a stone that makes a slurry, the slurry moves lengthwise across the sharp edge and dulls it slightly--not to mention the significant danger of the edge digging in.
However, you must follow up this operation with X-Patterns on a barber stone.

On hard barber stones, I use the X pattern and never get a bur.

I have found that when the edge is "too-sharp/Scratchy" sometimes the solution is 100 strokes on a plain leather hanging strop. It goes from scratchy to gliding.

If it has a bur, you can't really remove it with a strop, though, you need some time on a hard barber stone or you need to do some back-honing. This is because when the bur peels off, it leaves a rough edge that needs to be polished back out straight.

Play with it, that's where the fun is.

But keep one sharp razor aside to shave with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toolarts

My definition of overhoning is that the razor has lost so much metal it looks funny.

Other than that, I don't have a problem with this mysterious secret thing others call "overhoning" because I don't think it really exists. Of course others will disagree.

If you hone the bevels into a point, the next step will be a bur, or wire-edge as some folks call it. This is not what I call overhoning, and I there is nothing mystical about it.

It is mainl created by honing on cutting stones. It is easily removed by back honing, or lots of X-Patterns on a good barber stone, like a Dixie or Swaty.

When you are forming your bevel with cutting stones, feel free to back hone as much as you like. The X-Pattern is a polishing pattern, not a cutting pattern, though you can use it for that.

Up to 8K I do lots of back-honing so that burrs don't develop.

On soft japanese stones, I exclusively back-hone. If you forward hone with a stone that makes a slurry, the slurry moves lengthwise across the sharp edge and dulls it slightly--not to mention the significant danger of the edge digging in.
However, you must follow up this operation with X-Patterns on a barber stone.

On hard barber stones, I use the X pattern and never get a bur.

I have found that when the edge is "too-sharp/Scratchy" sometimes the solution is 100 strokes on a plain leather hanging strop. It goes from scratchy to gliding.

If it has a bur, you can't really remove it with a strop, though, you need some time on a hard barber stone or you need to do some back-honing. This is because when the bur peels off, it leaves a rough edge that needs to be polished back out straight.

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HUH????? :thinking:
I honestly have no idea what you just descibed?????
and I am pretty sure that any Newbie would not either.....

Leofric:
There is a perfectly good, very proven, Norton Pyramid method, that most people start their honing experiences with in the archives (in fact Lynn devised it) to help eliminate over honing..

After you feel very comfortable with honing razors, you might even experiment with the progressive method that a lot of us use...

Very Very light smooth pressure is the key, after that it is just practice...

Leofric, welcome to the world of honing discussions :roflmao :roflmao

Jordan ;)

Glen- I could swear Lynn stated that he was actually taught the pyramid in another thread...

Anyway, does anyone have a pic of an "overhoned" edge from a microscope that they could post? That might be helpful.

Yeah, exactly! :roflmao:roflmao

Yep, as much as I respect the archives and Lynn, none of that pyramid stuff worked for me at all. Never got a decent edge out of a Norton, nor did I EVER improve an edge with a pyramid. For me it was a waste of time.
The Norton 4K was, for me, the most useless stone I have ever used.

When I dropped all that stuff and figured out my own way, things got a lot better.

I used the barber texts as my guide and tried to figure out what worked historically. It wasn't until I started using barber stones that I started getting edges I could shave with. It just got better from there.

I also purchased a couple of exquisitely honed razors from some honemeisters here, and used those as a guide. The 100X microscope showed me a lot of useful clues.

It may take hundreds of strokes to hone out deep chips and rust pitting, however, once you have a good bevel:

- it shouldn't take more than about 10 or 15 minutes to get a shaving edge;

- If you find yourself doing hundreds of strokes on any stone, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Who knows, some day I may go back and find I was wrong about Norton and Pyramid, but I sure am getting nice edges right now. And I will never ever again use more than 100 strokes on anything except a plain leather strop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

Glen- I could swear Lynn stated that he was actually taught the pyramid in another thread...

Anyway, does anyone have a pic of an "overhoned" edge from a microscope that they could post? That might be helpful.

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Actually I believe you are right Alex I think Lynn did say something about that he was taught the pyramid system.... But the fact still remains that it was designed for beginners to sharpen a razor and to avoid an over honed condition... Not saying that it is a beginners system here, just that it is a safer system to use...

As to the pics maybe we could talk BT(byrontodd) into over honing a razor and taking some with that cool new microscope of his :roflmao

Oh, I forgot to mention:

I never do any of the tests except the shaving test.

the TNT is unnecessary if you have a microscope.

The TPT is so subjective as to be almost useless to a newbie--and again, arguably, the microscope makes it unnecessary.

The HHT seems to prove only one thing: That the razor will pass the HHT-since so many razors shave so well and don't pass the HHT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toolarts

the TNT is unnecessary if you have a microscope.

The TPT is so subjective as to be almost useless to a newbie--and again, arguably, the microscope makes it unnecessary.

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What would you look for in the microscope image to determine if the bevel is already sharp enough? I don't quite understand since the microscope would only give you a two dimensional image. Do you look at the edge at an angle?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leofric

Here's how I understand things. If a razor isn't sharp enough, it will evidently not pass the various sharpness tests. If an edge passes the tests coming straight off the 8K, or even 4K side, it's certainly sharp enough, but could be over-honed. If the edge is okay, after polishing on higher grits and stropping, it will shave well. If it's over-honed the edge will disintigrate while shaving and give a lousy shave.

I've read that sharp edges that are not well polished give an uncomfortable shave, so how might I tell if an edge is over-honed or simply needs more polishing on higher grits? Each one would not shave well, but do they each produce different effects/feelings? Is there a specific effect/feeling associated with each fault in the honing process?

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Overhoning is a confusing term. To me, an overhoned razor is one that has been honed to death--it has 1/4" wide hone wear on the spine, and it tapers from a 6/8 at the heel to a 3/8 at the toe. :eek: That razor is toast. You won't get damage like that from doing a few too many laps on your Norton. That is years of abuse right there.

I think I prefer the term "wire edge" for an edge that is very close to being shave-ready but has a burr on it. You can get this from doing a few too many laps on your Norton, but the razor isn't ruined. It just needs some minor work. You have taken the razor past shave-ready--you "overshot" the mark. Maybe that's where the term overhoned comes from.

Anyway, a wire edge is a thin flap of metal that forms on the very edge of your blade. Sometimes it develops after you do too many strokes on a given grit. Sometimes it's a sign that only one side of the blade is getting honed properly. (This happens a lot, actually. If there's a slight twist or warp to the blade, only one side of the edge will make contact, so the metal will get pushed over to the side that isn't hitting the hone.)

Most wire edges are visible to the naked eye, if you have good eyesight. A pair of reading glasses would help if you don't. Hold the razor under a strong light source, like an incandescent bulb. Turn the razor every which way, watching the way the light reflects from the honing bevel. It should only reflect light from one angle. If you see any light glinting from the very edge at any angle, you've got a problem. It could be a patch where the bevel has a different angle, or it could be a wire edge. Usually you'll see a bright, broken line along the edge if there is a wire.

Under a microscope, a wire edge usually looks jagged. It can also show up as a bright line or discoloration of some kind.

A wire edge will sometimes pass the HHT, but it will usually feel gritty or rough as it cuts the hair.

In the shave-test, a wire edge might not cut at all, or it might cut but feel scratchy and painful.

The pyramid system will help you avoid and remove wire edges. Bouncing back and forth between grits somehow seems to knock the burr off as it develops.

Let us know how you progress. :)

Josh

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Yeah, I agree, the term 'overhoning' is confusing; I should have used 'wire-edge' instead.

Didn't get round to honing yesterday, but I'll give it a try today and let you all know how it goes.

So, the pyramid system is good for avoiding creating a wire edge? That's great news and I'll definitely employ it. I'd read a bit about it, but thought it was just the optimum and quickest way of balancing your work on the different grits.

I need to work out a couple of very small knicks on my blade, so I'll be doing quite a bit of work on the 4K. After the knicks are gone, I'll do a little back-honing followed by a pyramid system.

You've answered my question (if your edge is sharp but doesn't shave well how do you know if it's a wire edge that needs removing or if it simply needs a little more polishing). From reading the replies, a wire edge will feel jagged/rough/scratchy and probably won't cut. I guess an under-polished edge would just feel unsmooth, rather than painful. You've cleared it up for me. Thanks, guys.

Edges polish pretty quickly. Just for the sake of discussion, if you started by honing on the 4K until the edge was evenly sharp and all nicks were removed, then 30 strokes on the 8K might take you to polished and possibly into the realm of creating a wire edge.

One normal pyramid should be plenty to polish an edge. If the razor still doesn't shave after one pyramid, something is wrong:
- Your techique needs work, and you're dulling the razor during the honing stroke
- The edge is really dull, and you need to drop back to the 4K for a while to reestablish the edge
- You've overhoned it and set yourself back a bit

An edge that is fundamentally sound but just needs some refining will usually pull the hairs as it cuts. A wire edge can do that, too, unfortunately.

There isn't one tell-tale sign as to exactly where your problem lies. You have to look at a few different things to figure out what's going on.

Josh

Simple way to check for overhoning:

1) Wet thumbnail with water or lather

2) Slide razor edge over wet thumbnail from heel to point

3) If edge bites into the nail with a rough or gritty sensation, it's overhoned

4) If overhoned, back-hone for a few strokes, re-check with thumbnail

It doesn't have to be any more complicated than the above.


Scott

Whoo, this is making my head spin! Thanks again to everyone:) .

Did some honing today. Started on the 4K using circular honing and managed to remove the knicks. This dulled it up pretty bad, so I built the edge back up starting more lightly on the 4K side, then when it seemed to be getting there I switched to the pyramid system.

Shaved with it and it was cutting the hair, but it was pulling quite a lot and was pretty uncomfortable. It's maybe halfway there, but it's gonna need more work.

Did the TNT after the shave (should've done it before), and it feels kinda rough near the toe, so I'll back-hone tomorrow.

I was using the X pattern throughout, with some pressure during the knick removal part, and now my blade is narrower at the toe than the heel :cry: ! It's only slight but it is perceptibly narrower. I didn't hone for hours and hours; probably about one hour of honing. I'm a bit shocked. Using the X pattern meant the heel was coming off the hone near the beginning, while the toe was experiencing the length of the whole stroke. In the forums I've read about noobs like me honing for hours, but I've not read about them honing their razor down like this. I accept I was probably a little heavy-handed, but I never realised this could happen so quickly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leofric

Whoo, this is making my head spin! Thanks again to everyone:) .

Did some honing today. Started on the 4K using circular honing and managed to remove the knicks. This dulled it up pretty bad, so I built the edge back up starting more lightly on the 4K side, then when it seemed to be getting there (how did you determine "getting there" and what exactly do you mean?) I switched to the pyramid system.

(I'm assuming at this point you stropped the razor until it was sufficiently keen?)

Shaved with it and it was cutting the hair, but it was pulling quite a lot and was pretty uncomfortable. It's maybe halfway there, but it's gonna need more work.

Did the TNT after the shave (should've done it before)(Yes! Do not run a stropped, keen edge over the nail. This will dull the razor. Only do the Thumb Pad Test after stropping), and it feels kinda rough near the toe, so I'll back-hone tomorrow.

I was using the X pattern throughout, with some pressure during the knick removal part, and now my blade is narrower at the toe than the heel :cry: ! It's only slight but it is perceptibly narrower. (This may be a problem as a begginer. Sounds like you spent too much time honing just one part of the blade) I didn't hone for hours and hours; probably about one hour of honing. I'm a bit shocked. Using the X pattern meant the heel was coming off the hone near the beginning, while the toe was experiencing the length of the whole stroke. (If honing properly, this should not happen. You may need to shorten your honing stroke so that the entire blade is honed evenly) In the forums I've read about noobs like me honing for hours (absolutely uneccessary! As a begginer, if you have to hone for more than 10-15 minutes, you are in over your head), but I've not read about them honing their razor down like this. I accept I was probably a little heavy-handed, but I never realised this could happen so quickly.

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Made some hopefully helpful comments (red highlights) in your post. Sounds like you are attempting to use a damaged/ used razor? Much better for a newbie to start out with either a factory new razor, or a reliably reconditioned razor. Starting out with a damaged razor just adds more headache to an already steep learning curve.


Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RayG

What would you look for in the microscope image to determine if the bevel is already sharp enough? I don't quite understand since the microscope would only give you a two dimensional image. Do you look at the edge at an angle?

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When the bevels meet, there is a characteristic look to the edge. It is a field of random chipping that reminds me of one of those diamond encrusted ceramic tile saws. At the same power (I use 100X) I can recognize this field of random chipping caused by my 1200 grit DMT. It is random, but quite regular. It only occurs when the bevels have met.

When I switch to a 4000 grit stone, the same random chipping is visible, but the area is narrower and the chips are finer. But it is uniform.

When I switch to 8000 grit, it again looks the same but even smaller, with finer chips.

At each of these levels, if there is a particularly large chip, it is the same thing you would have detected with the TNT, as a place where the razor did not pull smoothly over the nail. If I see one of these, I fall back to the coarser stone for a few more strokes to get rid of it.

Using these patterns, I can do much better with my microscope than with any TNT.

When I finally get to the Barber Stone, like my polished Swaty, I can make a line at 100X with a break only once every few pans. That razor, once stropped, will wipe off whiskers and leave my face dry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Overhoning is a confusing term. To me, an overhoned razor is one that has been honed to death--it has 1/4" wide hone wear on the spine, and it tapers from a 6/8 at the heel to a 3/8 at the toe. :eek: That razor is toast. You won't get damage like that from doing a few too many laps on your Norton. That is years of abuse right there.

I think I prefer the term "wire edge" for an edge that is very close to being shave-ready but has a burr on it.


Josh

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This is exactly what I was trying to describe in my original reply. To me overhoning means removing so much metal the razor starts to look funky--worn out.

The wire edge is actually called a "Bur" or "Burr" by most professionals who do grinding (my company has a whole group who do grinding for quadrupole elements for our mass spectrometers).

Wire edge works for me if people understand it better.

While it may be true that the pyramid removes the bur or wire edge, I have found that for 600, 1.2K, 2K, 4K, and even 8K stones, you can simply prevent it by back honing while you are honing. On those stones I go back and forth in both directions until I get red of all defects larger than the grit. Once the bevel is as smooth as that grit can get it, THEN I do a few strokes, maybe 12 without any back-honing.

Think about it scientifically. Back honing does not really damage the edge. Any change in the shape caused by back honing is negligible, and a few strokes exclusively forward will remove it. AND, if you are repairing an edge, keeping the edge in contact with the stone continuously gets the job done twice as fast.

The wire edge can look like a dark line below the real edge, or jagged pieces hanging off the edge, or even like chips and pitting. The only way to be sure is to back hone a few times and look again. It is amazing how nicely this works for me.

When I get to my final polishing stones, I rarely have to back hone on those. Just a few more forward strokes and then off to the leather strop.


When people where talking about "polishing out the lines from the previous grit", I was frustrated because I could never quite do this.

So, I tried an experiment.

After the 8K, I used my 12000 grit japanese stone and back honed exclusively--no forward strokes at all. I did about 80 strokes.

The bevel showed up as a nearly smooth mirror surface at 100X.

Then I did 12-24 forward strokes on my polished Swaty and stropped and shaved.

Wow.

I now do this just about every time I restore a razor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leofric

Whoo, this is making my head spin! Thanks again to everyone:) .

Did some honing today....Did the TNT after the shave (should've done it before), and it feels kinda rough near the toe, so I'll back-hone tomorrow.

.

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Leofric: If you are serious about learning to hone, get a microscope.

Yes, you can learn without one. You can also learn to play the piano blindfolded.

The microscope will give you all kinds of information you aren't getting now.

You can pick one up on Ebay for $50.00 or less, if you keep an eye out.

I purchased an Edmund Scientific with 20, 40, 100, and 1000 power magnifications for $40+ship. I mainly use the 100 power.

Totally worth it.

As you have probably realised by now, different people are going to tell you different things. Basically, in order to learn you are just going to have to experiment a lot. In my opinion, you are most likely going to have the problem of underhoning on the courser stones rather that overhoning but that's just a guess based on my experience teaching beginners how to hone. If you start to get frusterated then stop and have a beer. Honing should be a fun experience.

What are some of the commonly held arguments against backhoning as a means of creating bevels and polishing edges rather than a few backhone strokes to remove a wire edge? I recall in Lynn's DVD he mentions backhoning and considered it's use controversial.

Toolarts has clearly explained his reasons for supporting this practice, but I'd like others to explain their experience or understanding as to why backhoning is NOT a generally accepted honing practice. More succinctly, what's bad about it?

Thanks.

Chris L

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrisl

What are some of the commonly held arguments against backhoning as a means of creating bevels and polishing edges rather than a few backhone strokes to remove a wire edge? I recall in Lynn's DVD he mentions backhoning and considered it's use controversial.

Toolarts has clearly explained his reasons for supporting this practice, but I'd like others to explain their experience or understanding as to why backhoning is NOT a generally accepted honing practice. More succinctly, what's bad about it?

Thanks.

Chris L

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The argument against backhoning is that the metal particles that are being honed off get trapped and accumulate under the edge causing microchipping/damage of the fine edge that you are trying to create. This does not happen with edge leading honing because the metal particles are pushed out of the way. Dr. Verhoeven's (spelling could be wrong) scientific article explains it very well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toolarts

When the bevels meet, there is a characteristic look to the edge. It is a field of random chipping that reminds me of one of those diamond encrusted ceramic tile saws. At the same power (I use 100X) I can recognize this field of random chipping caused by my 1200 grit DMT. It is random, but quite regular. It only occurs when the bevels have met.

When I switch to a 4000 grit stone, the same random chipping is visible, but the area is narrower and the chips are finer. But it is uniform.

When I switch to 8000 grit, it again looks the same but even smaller, with finer chips.

At each of these levels, if there is a particularly large chip, it is the same thing you would have detected with the TNT, as a place where the razor did not pull smoothly over the nail. If I see one of these, I fall back to the coarser stone for a few more strokes to get rid of it.

Using these patterns, I can do much better with my microscope than with any TNT.

When I finally get to the Barber Stone, like my polished Swaty, I can make a line at 100X with a break only once every few pans. That razor, once stropped, will wipe off whiskers and leave my face dry.

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That was very helpful. Thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

The argument against backhoning is that the metal particles that are being honed off get trapped and accumulate under the edge causing microchipping/damage of the fine edge that you are trying to create. This does not happen with edge leading honing because the metal particles are pushed out of the way. Dr. Verhoeven's (spelling could be wrong) scientific article explains it very well.

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I have heard it said over and over that backhoning is not the proper way to hone! The explanations never quite made any sense to my way of thinking. I have occasionally backhoned towards the end of honing with no apparent ill effects (just lucky I guess). That being said, this is the first explanation that has made any sense to me!
Thanks David!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toolarts

Leofric: If you are serious about learning to hone, get a microscope.

Yes, you can learn without one. You can also learn to play the piano blindfolded.

The microscope will give you all kinds of information you aren't getting now.

You can pick one up on Ebay for $50.00 or less, if you keep an eye out.

I purchased an Edmund Scientific with 20, 40, 100, and 1000 power magnifications for $40+ship. I mainly use the 100 power.

Totally worth it.

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I picked up a good used Edmund Scientific for under $10 bucks on ebay.
Agreed ,they are totally worth it.

Gary

Yay, I started a 'hot thread' :D ! I love this place. It's a real little community, and it's a nice to be a member.

Scott (honedright) asked a couple of questions in his reply. I used the thumb pad test to check how I was progressing. At the point where I felt I was 'getting there', approaching a good bevel, it felt like the razor was clinging to my skin and moving a little as I stroked my thumb across it.

I stropped the razor 100 times before shaving. It was passing the hanging hair test on hairs plucked from my chest (they're thicker than my head-hair and curved), but only towards the heel. It wasn't passing the HHT towards the toe, and wasn't cutting the tips of my arm-hair.

I'll try your advice about shortening my strokes. I was using the whole length of the hone, 8".

This razor is a Dovo Prima Silver I bought brand new and shave-ready a few months ago, so I'm pretty sure the faults lie in my technique.

Toolarts- "My definition of overhoning is that the razor has lost so much metal it looks funny" I ended up doing what you were describing! I started out worrying about a 'wire-edge' and actually managed to 'overhone'! Now the title of this thread is appropiate lol :roflmao .

Well, I'm not gonna get discouraged. This hobby is an investment of time and money, and I knew there were gonna be a few casualties along the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leofric

At the point where I felt I was 'getting there', approaching a good bevel, it felt like the razor was clinging to my skin and moving a little as I stroked my thumb across it. (I've read many posts where guys are using the thumb pad to test progression of their honing. This is not the classic method for testing honing progression - the thumb nail is - but I suppose I shouldn't argue against this, as long as you are happy with the results)

I stropped the razor 100 times before shaving. It was passing the hanging hair test on hairs plucked from my chest (they're thicker than my head-hair and curved), but only towards the heel. It wasn't passing the HHT towards the toe, and wasn't cutting the tips of my arm-hair. (This is a good indicator that you still need some work on consistent honing and stropping so that the whole edge is evenly keen. Much easier said than done. Just takes time and practice as you already know)

I'll try your advice about shortening my strokes. I was using the whole length of the hone, 8". (Keep in mind that many barbers used hones that were no more than 3-4 inches in length)

This razor is a Dovo Prima Silver I bought brand new and shave-ready a few months ago, so I'm pretty sure the faults lie in my technique. (In your original post I thought you mentioned honing out a chip. I assumed on a used "ebay" razor :) )

Well, I'm not gonna get discouraged. This hobby is an investment of time and money, and I knew there were gonna be a few casualties along the way.

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Just a few more comments above in red. Sounds like you have a great start, and a great attitude, for what can sometimes be a very frustrating endeavor.

And congrats on your "hot thread" status!


Scott

Well, if I'm on the right path it's only because of all the great information and help everyone on this site gives :bow .

Yep, new razor. Don't know how the knicks got there, but it was only when I was closely inspecting my blade, with a view to honing it, that I noticed them. They were only about a quater of the way into the bevel, but they had to go.

Just bought a microscope that gives me 100X magnification. It really is fascinating looking at the edge so closely. I'd advise everyone to get one. The good news is I'm pretty sure there's no wire edge. In some places it's not completely smooth, but it certainly doesn't look severe. Would a wire-edge more resemble a mountain scape?

That wire edge is tricky to see under the microscope.

As I said, it can look like a chipped edge, or a line behinds the chips, etc.

For me it usually just looks ragged. Really hard to tell from an underhoned edge.

But, if you give it a couple of back-hone strokes and suddenly you have a nice straight bevel, then you know it was a wire edge. For me, they seem to be particularly common on the heel and toe, as that is where I lift the razor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

The argument against backhoning is that the metal particles that are being honed off get trapped and accumulate under the edge causing microchipping/damage of the fine edge that you are trying to create. This does not happen with edge leading honing because the metal particles are pushed out of the way. Dr. Verhoeven's (spelling could be wrong) scientific article explains it very well.

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I totally agree with this.

To clarify what I wrote before, I do lots of back honing at lower grits where it doesn't make that much difference, mainly to get rid of the big, deep chips--and I always, always, always finish with a few forward strokes with no back-honing.

When polishing with barber stones, I back hone just a little, but most of the strokes are forward strokes, certainly the last 20 or so.

And now, I am going to take HEAVEYDUTYSG135's advice and pour myself a beer, and then play with my belgian blue and my yellow coticule again.

This is so much fun I may sell my motorcycle so I have more time to play with razors.:D