Thread: Identifying overhoning?

Tomorrow I'm gonna attempt my first honing . I have a couple of questions about over-honing, since I expect it's something I'll encounter. I'll be using a Norton 4K/8K.

Here's how I understand things. If a razor isn't sharp enough, it will evidently not pass the various sharpness tests. If an edge passes the tests coming straight off the 8K, or even 4K side, it's certainly sharp enough, but could be over-honed. If the edge is okay, after polishing on higher grits and stropping, it will shave well. If it's over-honed the edge will disintigrate while shaving and give a lousy shave.

I've read that sharp edges that are not well polished give an uncomfortable shave, so how might I tell if an edge is over-honed or simply needs more polishing on higher grits? Each one would not shave well, but do they each produce different effects/feelings? Is there a specific effect/feeling associated with each fault in the honing process?

Yea, but describing it a 5 am might be a big challenge. To me the blade feels "too sharp" painful and a little scratchy. It passes the HHT just fine. The next stage it actually starts feeling dull again. Somewhere in there it will feel like your shaving with a shard of glass. It really depends on the amount of overhoning, which is really easy to see with a microscope.

My definition of overhoning is that the razor has lost so much metal it looks funny.

Other than that, I don't have a problem with this mysterious secret thing others call "overhoning" because I don't think it really exists. Of course others will disagree.

If you hone the bevels into a point, the next step will be a bur, or wire-edge as some folks call it. This is not what I call overhoning, and I there is nothing mystical about it.

It is mainl created by honing on cutting stones. It is easily removed by back honing, or lots of X-Patterns on a good barber stone, like a Dixie or Swaty.

When you are forming your bevel with cutting stones, feel free to back hone as much as you like. The X-Pattern is a polishing pattern, not a cutting pattern, though you can use it for that.

Up to 8K I do lots of back-honing so that burrs don't develop.

On soft japanese stones, I exclusively back-hone. If you forward hone with a stone that makes a slurry, the slurry moves lengthwise across the sharp edge and dulls it slightly--not to mention the significant danger of the edge digging in.
However, you must follow up this operation with X-Patterns on a barber stone.

On hard barber stones, I use the X pattern and never get a bur.

I have found that when the edge is "too-sharp/Scratchy" sometimes the solution is 100 strokes on a plain leather hanging strop. It goes from scratchy to gliding.

If it has a bur, you can't really remove it with a strop, though, you need some time on a hard barber stone or you need to do some back-honing. This is because when the bur peels off, it leaves a rough edge that needs to be polished back out straight.

Play with it, that's where the fun is.

But keep one sharp razor aside to shave with.

Originally Posted by toolarts

My definition of overhoning is that the razor has lost so much metal it looks funny.

Other than that, I don't have a problem with this mysterious secret thing others call "overhoning" because I don't think it really exists. Of course others will disagree.

If you hone the bevels into a point, the next step will be a bur, or wire-edge as some folks call it. This is not what I call overhoning, and I there is nothing mystical about it.

It is mainl created by honing on cutting stones. It is easily removed by back honing, or lots of X-Patterns on a good barber stone, like a Dixie or Swaty.

When you are forming your bevel with cutting stones, feel free to back hone as much as you like. The X-Pattern is a polishing pattern, not a cutting pattern, though you can use it for that.

Up to 8K I do lots of back-honing so that burrs don't develop.

On soft japanese stones, I exclusively back-hone. If you forward hone with a stone that makes a slurry, the slurry moves lengthwise across the sharp edge and dulls it slightly--not to mention the significant danger of the edge digging in.
However, you must follow up this operation with X-Patterns on a barber stone.

On hard barber stones, I use the X pattern and never get a bur.

I have found that when the edge is "too-sharp/Scratchy" sometimes the solution is 100 strokes on a plain leather hanging strop. It goes from scratchy to gliding.

If it has a bur, you can't really remove it with a strop, though, you need some time on a hard barber stone or you need to do some back-honing. This is because when the bur peels off, it leaves a rough edge that needs to be polished back out straight.

HUH?????
I honestly have no idea what you just descibed?????
and I am pretty sure that any Newbie would not either.....

Leofric:
There is a perfectly good, very proven, Norton Pyramid method, that most people start their honing experiences with in the archives (in fact Lynn devised it) to help eliminate over honing..

After you feel very comfortable with honing razors, you might even experiment with the progressive method that a lot of us use...

Very Very light smooth pressure is the key, after that it is just practice...

Leofric, welcome to the world of honing discussions

Jordan

Glen- I could swear Lynn stated that he was actually taught the pyramid in another thread...

Anyway, does anyone have a pic of an "overhoned" edge from a microscope that they could post? That might be helpful.

Yeah, exactly!

Yep, as much as I respect the archives and Lynn, none of that pyramid stuff worked for me at all. Never got a decent edge out of a Norton, nor did I EVER improve an edge with a pyramid. For me it was a waste of time.
The Norton 4K was, for me, the most useless stone I have ever used.

When I dropped all that stuff and figured out my own way, things got a lot better.

I used the barber texts as my guide and tried to figure out what worked historically. It wasn't until I started using barber stones that I started getting edges I could shave with. It just got better from there.

I also purchased a couple of exquisitely honed razors from some honemeisters here, and used those as a guide. The 100X microscope showed me a lot of useful clues.

It may take hundreds of strokes to hone out deep chips and rust pitting, however, once you have a good bevel:

- it shouldn't take more than about 10 or 15 minutes to get a shaving edge;

- If you find yourself doing hundreds of strokes on any stone, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Who knows, some day I may go back and find I was wrong about Norton and Pyramid, but I sure am getting nice edges right now. And I will never ever again use more than 100 strokes on anything except a plain leather strop.

Originally Posted by Philadelph

Glen- I could swear Lynn stated that he was actually taught the pyramid in another thread...

Anyway, does anyone have a pic of an "overhoned" edge from a microscope that they could post? That might be helpful.

Actually I believe you are right Alex I think Lynn did say something about that he was taught the pyramid system.... But the fact still remains that it was designed for beginners to sharpen a razor and to avoid an over honed condition... Not saying that it is a beginners system here, just that it is a safer system to use...

As to the pics maybe we could talk BT(byrontodd) into over honing a razor and taking some with that cool new microscope of his

Oh, I forgot to mention:

I never do any of the tests except the shaving test.

the TNT is unnecessary if you have a microscope.

The TPT is so subjective as to be almost useless to a newbie--and again, arguably, the microscope makes it unnecessary.

The HHT seems to prove only one thing: That the razor will pass the HHT-since so many razors shave so well and don't pass the HHT.