Thread: Identifying overhoning?

As you have probably realised by now, different people are going to tell you different things. Basically, in order to learn you are just going to have to experiment a lot. In my opinion, you are most likely going to have the problem of underhoning on the courser stones rather that overhoning but that's just a guess based on my experience teaching beginners how to hone. If you start to get frusterated then stop and have a beer. Honing should be a fun experience.

What are some of the commonly held arguments against backhoning as a means of creating bevels and polishing edges rather than a few backhone strokes to remove a wire edge? I recall in Lynn's DVD he mentions backhoning and considered it's use controversial.

Toolarts has clearly explained his reasons for supporting this practice, but I'd like others to explain their experience or understanding as to why backhoning is NOT a generally accepted honing practice. More succinctly, what's bad about it?

Thanks.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chrisl

What are some of the commonly held arguments against backhoning as a means of creating bevels and polishing edges rather than a few backhone strokes to remove a wire edge? I recall in Lynn's DVD he mentions backhoning and considered it's use controversial.

Toolarts has clearly explained his reasons for supporting this practice, but I'd like others to explain their experience or understanding as to why backhoning is NOT a generally accepted honing practice. More succinctly, what's bad about it?

Thanks.

Chris L

The argument against backhoning is that the metal particles that are being honed off get trapped and accumulate under the edge causing microchipping/damage of the fine edge that you are trying to create. This does not happen with edge leading honing because the metal particles are pushed out of the way. Dr. Verhoeven's (spelling could be wrong) scientific article explains it very well.

Originally Posted by toolarts

When the bevels meet, there is a characteristic look to the edge. It is a field of random chipping that reminds me of one of those diamond encrusted ceramic tile saws. At the same power (I use 100X) I can recognize this field of random chipping caused by my 1200 grit DMT. It is random, but quite regular. It only occurs when the bevels have met.

When I switch to a 4000 grit stone, the same random chipping is visible, but the area is narrower and the chips are finer. But it is uniform.

When I switch to 8000 grit, it again looks the same but even smaller, with finer chips.

At each of these levels, if there is a particularly large chip, it is the same thing you would have detected with the TNT, as a place where the razor did not pull smoothly over the nail. If I see one of these, I fall back to the coarser stone for a few more strokes to get rid of it.

Using these patterns, I can do much better with my microscope than with any TNT.

When I finally get to the Barber Stone, like my polished Swaty, I can make a line at 100X with a break only once every few pans. That razor, once stropped, will wipe off whiskers and leave my face dry.

That was very helpful. Thank you.

Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

The argument against backhoning is that the metal particles that are being honed off get trapped and accumulate under the edge causing microchipping/damage of the fine edge that you are trying to create. This does not happen with edge leading honing because the metal particles are pushed out of the way. Dr. Verhoeven's (spelling could be wrong) scientific article explains it very well.

I have heard it said over and over that backhoning is not the proper way to hone! The explanations never quite made any sense to my way of thinking. I have occasionally backhoned towards the end of honing with no apparent ill effects (just lucky I guess). That being said, this is the first explanation that has made any sense to me!
Thanks David!!

Originally Posted by toolarts

Leofric: If you are serious about learning to hone, get a microscope.

Yes, you can learn without one. You can also learn to play the piano blindfolded.

The microscope will give you all kinds of information you aren't getting now.

You can pick one up on Ebay for $50.00 or less, if you keep an eye out.

I purchased an Edmund Scientific with 20, 40, 100, and 1000 power magnifications for $40+ship. I mainly use the 100 power.

Totally worth it.

I picked up a good used Edmund Scientific for under $10 bucks on ebay.
Agreed ,they are totally worth it.

Gary

Yay, I started a 'hot thread' ! I love this place. It's a real little community, and it's a nice to be a member.

Scott (honedright) asked a couple of questions in his reply. I used the thumb pad test to check how I was progressing. At the point where I felt I was 'getting there', approaching a good bevel, it felt like the razor was clinging to my skin and moving a little as I stroked my thumb across it.

I stropped the razor 100 times before shaving. It was passing the hanging hair test on hairs plucked from my chest (they're thicker than my head-hair and curved), but only towards the heel. It wasn't passing the HHT towards the toe, and wasn't cutting the tips of my arm-hair.

I'll try your advice about shortening my strokes. I was using the whole length of the hone, 8".

This razor is a Dovo Prima Silver I bought brand new and shave-ready a few months ago, so I'm pretty sure the faults lie in my technique.

Toolarts- "My definition of overhoning is that the razor has lost so much metal it looks funny" I ended up doing what you were describing! I started out worrying about a 'wire-edge' and actually managed to 'overhone'! Now the title of this thread is appropiate lol .

Well, I'm not gonna get discouraged. This hobby is an investment of time and money, and I knew there were gonna be a few casualties along the way.

Originally Posted by Leofric

At the point where I felt I was 'getting there', approaching a good bevel, it felt like the razor was clinging to my skin and moving a little as I stroked my thumb across it. (I've read many posts where guys are using the thumb pad to test progression of their honing. This is not the classic method for testing honing progression - the thumb nail is - but I suppose I shouldn't argue against this, as long as you are happy with the results)

I stropped the razor 100 times before shaving. It was passing the hanging hair test on hairs plucked from my chest (they're thicker than my head-hair and curved), but only towards the heel. It wasn't passing the HHT towards the toe, and wasn't cutting the tips of my arm-hair. (This is a good indicator that you still need some work on consistent honing and stropping so that the whole edge is evenly keen. Much easier said than done. Just takes time and practice as you already know)

I'll try your advice about shortening my strokes. I was using the whole length of the hone, 8". (Keep in mind that many barbers used hones that were no more than 3-4 inches in length)

This razor is a Dovo Prima Silver I bought brand new and shave-ready a few months ago, so I'm pretty sure the faults lie in my technique. (In your original post I thought you mentioned honing out a chip. I assumed on a used "ebay" razor )

Well, I'm not gonna get discouraged. This hobby is an investment of time and money, and I knew there were gonna be a few casualties along the way.

Just a few more comments above in red. Sounds like you have a great start, and a great attitude, for what can sometimes be a very frustrating endeavor.

And congrats on your "hot thread" status!


Scott

Well, if I'm on the right path it's only because of all the great information and help everyone on this site gives .

Yep, new razor. Don't know how the knicks got there, but it was only when I was closely inspecting my blade, with a view to honing it, that I noticed them. They were only about a quater of the way into the bevel, but they had to go.

Just bought a microscope that gives me 100X magnification. It really is fascinating looking at the edge so closely. I'd advise everyone to get one. The good news is I'm pretty sure there's no wire edge. In some places it's not completely smooth, but it certainly doesn't look severe. Would a wire-edge more resemble a mountain scape?

That wire edge is tricky to see under the microscope.

As I said, it can look like a chipped edge, or a line behinds the chips, etc.

For me it usually just looks ragged. Really hard to tell from an underhoned edge.

But, if you give it a couple of back-hone strokes and suddenly you have a nice straight bevel, then you know it was a wire edge. For me, they seem to be particularly common on the heel and toe, as that is where I lift the razor.