Thread: Identifying overhoning?

Originally Posted by toolarts

the TNT is unnecessary if you have a microscope.

The TPT is so subjective as to be almost useless to a newbie--and again, arguably, the microscope makes it unnecessary.

What would you look for in the microscope image to determine if the bevel is already sharp enough? I don't quite understand since the microscope would only give you a two dimensional image. Do you look at the edge at an angle?

Originally Posted by Leofric

Here's how I understand things. If a razor isn't sharp enough, it will evidently not pass the various sharpness tests. If an edge passes the tests coming straight off the 8K, or even 4K side, it's certainly sharp enough, but could be over-honed. If the edge is okay, after polishing on higher grits and stropping, it will shave well. If it's over-honed the edge will disintigrate while shaving and give a lousy shave.

I've read that sharp edges that are not well polished give an uncomfortable shave, so how might I tell if an edge is over-honed or simply needs more polishing on higher grits? Each one would not shave well, but do they each produce different effects/feelings? Is there a specific effect/feeling associated with each fault in the honing process?

Overhoning is a confusing term. To me, an overhoned razor is one that has been honed to death--it has 1/4" wide hone wear on the spine, and it tapers from a 6/8 at the heel to a 3/8 at the toe. That razor is toast. You won't get damage like that from doing a few too many laps on your Norton. That is years of abuse right there.

I think I prefer the term "wire edge" for an edge that is very close to being shave-ready but has a burr on it. You can get this from doing a few too many laps on your Norton, but the razor isn't ruined. It just needs some minor work. You have taken the razor past shave-ready--you "overshot" the mark. Maybe that's where the term overhoned comes from.

Anyway, a wire edge is a thin flap of metal that forms on the very edge of your blade. Sometimes it develops after you do too many strokes on a given grit. Sometimes it's a sign that only one side of the blade is getting honed properly. (This happens a lot, actually. If there's a slight twist or warp to the blade, only one side of the edge will make contact, so the metal will get pushed over to the side that isn't hitting the hone.)

Most wire edges are visible to the naked eye, if you have good eyesight. A pair of reading glasses would help if you don't. Hold the razor under a strong light source, like an incandescent bulb. Turn the razor every which way, watching the way the light reflects from the honing bevel. It should only reflect light from one angle. If you see any light glinting from the very edge at any angle, you've got a problem. It could be a patch where the bevel has a different angle, or it could be a wire edge. Usually you'll see a bright, broken line along the edge if there is a wire.

Under a microscope, a wire edge usually looks jagged. It can also show up as a bright line or discoloration of some kind.

A wire edge will sometimes pass the HHT, but it will usually feel gritty or rough as it cuts the hair.

In the shave-test, a wire edge might not cut at all, or it might cut but feel scratchy and painful.

The pyramid system will help you avoid and remove wire edges. Bouncing back and forth between grits somehow seems to knock the burr off as it develops.

Let us know how you progress.

Josh

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Yeah, I agree, the term 'overhoning' is confusing; I should have used 'wire-edge' instead.

Didn't get round to honing yesterday, but I'll give it a try today and let you all know how it goes.

So, the pyramid system is good for avoiding creating a wire edge? That's great news and I'll definitely employ it. I'd read a bit about it, but thought it was just the optimum and quickest way of balancing your work on the different grits.

I need to work out a couple of very small knicks on my blade, so I'll be doing quite a bit of work on the 4K. After the knicks are gone, I'll do a little back-honing followed by a pyramid system.

You've answered my question (if your edge is sharp but doesn't shave well how do you know if it's a wire edge that needs removing or if it simply needs a little more polishing). From reading the replies, a wire edge will feel jagged/rough/scratchy and probably won't cut. I guess an under-polished edge would just feel unsmooth, rather than painful. You've cleared it up for me. Thanks, guys.

Edges polish pretty quickly. Just for the sake of discussion, if you started by honing on the 4K until the edge was evenly sharp and all nicks were removed, then 30 strokes on the 8K might take you to polished and possibly into the realm of creating a wire edge.

One normal pyramid should be plenty to polish an edge. If the razor still doesn't shave after one pyramid, something is wrong:
- Your techique needs work, and you're dulling the razor during the honing stroke
- The edge is really dull, and you need to drop back to the 4K for a while to reestablish the edge
- You've overhoned it and set yourself back a bit

An edge that is fundamentally sound but just needs some refining will usually pull the hairs as it cuts. A wire edge can do that, too, unfortunately.

There isn't one tell-tale sign as to exactly where your problem lies. You have to look at a few different things to figure out what's going on.

Josh

Simple way to check for overhoning:

1) Wet thumbnail with water or lather

2) Slide razor edge over wet thumbnail from heel to point

3) If edge bites into the nail with a rough or gritty sensation, it's overhoned

4) If overhoned, back-hone for a few strokes, re-check with thumbnail

It doesn't have to be any more complicated than the above.


Scott

Whoo, this is making my head spin! Thanks again to everyone .

Did some honing today. Started on the 4K using circular honing and managed to remove the knicks. This dulled it up pretty bad, so I built the edge back up starting more lightly on the 4K side, then when it seemed to be getting there I switched to the pyramid system.

Shaved with it and it was cutting the hair, but it was pulling quite a lot and was pretty uncomfortable. It's maybe halfway there, but it's gonna need more work.

Did the TNT after the shave (should've done it before), and it feels kinda rough near the toe, so I'll back-hone tomorrow.

I was using the X pattern throughout, with some pressure during the knick removal part, and now my blade is narrower at the toe than the heel ! It's only slight but it is perceptibly narrower. I didn't hone for hours and hours; probably about one hour of honing. I'm a bit shocked. Using the X pattern meant the heel was coming off the hone near the beginning, while the toe was experiencing the length of the whole stroke. In the forums I've read about noobs like me honing for hours, but I've not read about them honing their razor down like this. I accept I was probably a little heavy-handed, but I never realised this could happen so quickly.

Originally Posted by Leofric

Whoo, this is making my head spin! Thanks again to everyone .

Did some honing today. Started on the 4K using circular honing and managed to remove the knicks. This dulled it up pretty bad, so I built the edge back up starting more lightly on the 4K side, then when it seemed to be getting there (how did you determine "getting there" and what exactly do you mean?) I switched to the pyramid system.

(I'm assuming at this point you stropped the razor until it was sufficiently keen?)

Shaved with it and it was cutting the hair, but it was pulling quite a lot and was pretty uncomfortable. It's maybe halfway there, but it's gonna need more work.

Did the TNT after the shave (should've done it before)(Yes! Do not run a stropped, keen edge over the nail. This will dull the razor. Only do the Thumb Pad Test after stropping), and it feels kinda rough near the toe, so I'll back-hone tomorrow.

I was using the X pattern throughout, with some pressure during the knick removal part, and now my blade is narrower at the toe than the heel ! It's only slight but it is perceptibly narrower. (This may be a problem as a begginer. Sounds like you spent too much time honing just one part of the blade) I didn't hone for hours and hours; probably about one hour of honing. I'm a bit shocked. Using the X pattern meant the heel was coming off the hone near the beginning, while the toe was experiencing the length of the whole stroke. (If honing properly, this should not happen. You may need to shorten your honing stroke so that the entire blade is honed evenly) In the forums I've read about noobs like me honing for hours (absolutely uneccessary! As a begginer, if you have to hone for more than 10-15 minutes, you are in over your head), but I've not read about them honing their razor down like this. I accept I was probably a little heavy-handed, but I never realised this could happen so quickly.

Made some hopefully helpful comments (red highlights) in your post. Sounds like you are attempting to use a damaged/ used razor? Much better for a newbie to start out with either a factory new razor, or a reliably reconditioned razor. Starting out with a damaged razor just adds more headache to an already steep learning curve.


Scott

Originally Posted by RayG

What would you look for in the microscope image to determine if the bevel is already sharp enough? I don't quite understand since the microscope would only give you a two dimensional image. Do you look at the edge at an angle?

When the bevels meet, there is a characteristic look to the edge. It is a field of random chipping that reminds me of one of those diamond encrusted ceramic tile saws. At the same power (I use 100X) I can recognize this field of random chipping caused by my 1200 grit DMT. It is random, but quite regular. It only occurs when the bevels have met.

When I switch to a 4000 grit stone, the same random chipping is visible, but the area is narrower and the chips are finer. But it is uniform.

When I switch to 8000 grit, it again looks the same but even smaller, with finer chips.

At each of these levels, if there is a particularly large chip, it is the same thing you would have detected with the TNT, as a place where the razor did not pull smoothly over the nail. If I see one of these, I fall back to the coarser stone for a few more strokes to get rid of it.

Using these patterns, I can do much better with my microscope than with any TNT.

When I finally get to the Barber Stone, like my polished Swaty, I can make a line at 100X with a break only once every few pans. That razor, once stropped, will wipe off whiskers and leave my face dry.

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Overhoning is a confusing term. To me, an overhoned razor is one that has been honed to death--it has 1/4" wide hone wear on the spine, and it tapers from a 6/8 at the heel to a 3/8 at the toe. That razor is toast. You won't get damage like that from doing a few too many laps on your Norton. That is years of abuse right there.

I think I prefer the term "wire edge" for an edge that is very close to being shave-ready but has a burr on it.


Josh

This is exactly what I was trying to describe in my original reply. To me overhoning means removing so much metal the razor starts to look funky--worn out.

The wire edge is actually called a "Bur" or "Burr" by most professionals who do grinding (my company has a whole group who do grinding for quadrupole elements for our mass spectrometers).

Wire edge works for me if people understand it better.

While it may be true that the pyramid removes the bur or wire edge, I have found that for 600, 1.2K, 2K, 4K, and even 8K stones, you can simply prevent it by back honing while you are honing. On those stones I go back and forth in both directions until I get red of all defects larger than the grit. Once the bevel is as smooth as that grit can get it, THEN I do a few strokes, maybe 12 without any back-honing.

Think about it scientifically. Back honing does not really damage the edge. Any change in the shape caused by back honing is negligible, and a few strokes exclusively forward will remove it. AND, if you are repairing an edge, keeping the edge in contact with the stone continuously gets the job done twice as fast.

The wire edge can look like a dark line below the real edge, or jagged pieces hanging off the edge, or even like chips and pitting. The only way to be sure is to back hone a few times and look again. It is amazing how nicely this works for me.

When I get to my final polishing stones, I rarely have to back hone on those. Just a few more forward strokes and then off to the leather strop.


When people where talking about "polishing out the lines from the previous grit", I was frustrated because I could never quite do this.

So, I tried an experiment.

After the 8K, I used my 12000 grit japanese stone and back honed exclusively--no forward strokes at all. I did about 80 strokes.

The bevel showed up as a nearly smooth mirror surface at 100X.

Then I did 12-24 forward strokes on my polished Swaty and stropped and shaved.

Wow.

I now do this just about every time I restore a razor.

Originally Posted by Leofric

Whoo, this is making my head spin! Thanks again to everyone .

Did some honing today....Did the TNT after the shave (should've done it before), and it feels kinda rough near the toe, so I'll back-hone tomorrow.

.

Leofric: If you are serious about learning to hone, get a microscope.

Yes, you can learn without one. You can also learn to play the piano blindfolded.

The microscope will give you all kinds of information you aren't getting now.

You can pick one up on Ebay for $50.00 or less, if you keep an eye out.

I purchased an Edmund Scientific with 20, 40, 100, and 1000 power magnifications for $40+ship. I mainly use the 100 power.

Totally worth it.